POI on multisource switchgear

PeterW

Member
Location
Washington DC
Occupation
Solar Engineer
We are looking at a 480V switchgear with three (3) 2000A sources that all feed the same 6,000A bus. Each 2000 A breaker is fed from its own source. There are no tie breakers and (5) loads breakers with various loads to the building. There is an existing 4,000A spare. I don't believe that we can add any power to this source because of 705.12(B)(3)(1). Thoughts?
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
We are looking at a 480V switchgear with three (3) 2000A sources that all feed the same 6,000A bus. Each 2000 A breaker is fed from its own source. There are no tie breakers and (5) loads breakers with various loads to the building. There is an existing 4,000A spare. I don't believe that we can add any power to this source because of 705.12(B)(3)(1). Thoughts?
If the switchgear is MLO and if I understand you correctly (that the three 2000A sources are PV), the limiting factors would be the ampacity of the service conductors and the kVA of the utility transformer, and 705.12 would not apply because the PV connections are supply side and governed by 705.11. But under the 2023 NEC this would not be allowed.

I don't see how you could have 6000A of PV connected on the load side of a 6000A bus (per 705.12); the OCPD would have to be at most 6000A which would limit the PV to be 960A. I don't think you could downsize the bus OCPD enough to allow (3) 2000A PV breakers.

But as Carultch says, a drawing would help.
 

PeterW

Member
Location
Washington DC
Occupation
Solar Engineer
I redrew it real quick. There are 3 sources fed by 3 transformers.
 

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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I redrew it real quick. There are 3 sources fed by 3 transformers.
What is on the other side of the transformers from the switchgear? What is MDC? Is the switchgear MLO or is it fed by a disconnect with OCP? We can't help you without a more complete description of what you are trying to do.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
We are looking at a 480V switchgear with three (3) 2000A sources that all feed the same 6,000A bus. Each 2000 A breaker is fed from its own source. There are no tie breakers and (5) loads breakers with various loads to the building. There is an existing 4,000A spare. I don't believe that we can add any power to this source because of 705.12(B)(3)(1). Thoughts?
705.2(B)(3)(1) is just one of several options to qualify equipment for backfeed, so it doesn't stop you just because you can't use it. However the only option I think might work for you is (B)(3)(5), 'engineering supervision'.

(2020 NEC numbering)
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
705.2(B)(3)(1) is just one of several options to qualify equipment for backfeed, so it doesn't stop you just because you can't use it. However the only option I think might work for you is (B)(3)(5), 'engineering supervision'.

(2020 NEC numbering)
From what I can glean it looks like a supply side connection to a MLO panel.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
From what I can glean it looks like a supply side connection to a MLO panel.
From what I can glean the utility paralleled three transformers to power it, and the (3) 2000A breakers are the service disconnects, so the busbar is on the load side of the service disconnects. So no, not an MLO. Unusual arrangement AFAIK, but permitted by 230.2(C).
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
From what I can glean the utility paralleled three transformers to power it, and the (3) 2000A breakers are the service disconnects, so the busbar is on the load side of the service disconnects. So no, not an MLO. Unusual arrangement AFAIK, but permitted by 230.2(C).
OK, I see that now. So how can he comply with 705.12?
 

PWDickerson

Senior Member
Location
Clinton, WA
Occupation
Solar Contractor
I don't do a lot of commercial and industrial work, but it sure looks strange to have multiple transformers feeding a single panel, and feeder breakers that exceed the panel bus rating.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I would guess this is some specially engineered monstrosity. I don't see how you can feed a bus with a 3500 Amp rating using three 2000 A CBs. What protects the bus? Maybe there is some relaying that protects the bus that is not shown.

I don't have an issue with the parallel transformers. That is common enough.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I don't do a lot of commercial and industrial work, but it sure looks strange to have multiple transformers feeding a single panel, and feeder breakers that exceed the panel bus rating.
I have seen multiple feeds to a bus a couple of times, but there is no reason why load breaker ratings couldn't exceed the bus rating.
 
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