Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

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electricmanscott

electricmanscott

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Boston, MA
Wired an above ground pool today. Ran my #8 cu around the top of the pool and nut and bolted lugs in four spots. Connected #8 to motor lug. Inspector says no way. Bond has to be in contact with the ground so that the pool is "Connected to the earth". Just drive a ground rod and connect that to the # 8 was one of his solutions. Asked him to show me in the book what he is talking about and the answer of course... I don't have time. :roll: I explain to him that he is confusing grounding and bonding and I read to him all the applicable sections relevant to the bonding situation and he says he'll do some research. We'll see what he comes up with.
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

You've already done more than I do. I do one lug in one place (near the pump) and connect it to the pump lug and call it good. If the consensus response to this thread seems to be that more than one lug is most appropriate, maybe that's what I'll start to do.
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

Tell him you don't have time to drive a ground rod or the time to teach him his job.Go over his head since he didn't support his citation.
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

mdshunk I'm with you. I just nut and bolt a lug near the pump and bond the continuos metal frame of the pool once . Regarding the inspector in the original post, he's wrong and he shouldn't be let off the hook by just doing what he says. If he can't cite specific code articles than he can't enforce a so called violation because it doesn't exist.
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

Just to be clear, I do not do things just because the inspector says. As for the connecting to the pool once I agree that is all you need, this is one of those things that I do mostly out of habit. Seems to be that way I have always done it. No doubt overkill. Anyway we'll see what he comes up with from his "research". In his defense he was not being a jerk about it, I think he is just a needs little more education on the subject. Grounding and bonding are the most confusing parts of the code. (Except of course for small appliance circuits) :p
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

Is the motor that you bonded to wired with a circuit?

Did you include an equipment grounding conductor with the motor circuit?

Is the panel from which the circuit originated bonded to the grounding electrode conductor?

Is the grounding electrode conductor connected to a grounding electrode?

If you answered yes to all the above you have complied with his request.
:)
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

"Is the grounding electrode conductor connected to a grounding electrode?"

This is not required for pools (if that is what you are refering to), read the FPN following 680.26 for referencing this topic.


I will say one thing about BONDING of pools:
The NEC is the minimum requirement necessary to pass for safety. With the rash of recent stray current/voltage incidents (at least in the Northeast), I would be inclined as an electrician to install an equipotential bonding grid that is a little more than the MINIMUM that is required.
As an inspector I never require more than the minimum, and there are quite a few people who install the minimum and pass ;) , but I think the consumer is owed the option of knowing that more in bonding of pools is definitely worth the added cost. Bonding of 1 location is all that is required, but bonding to 4 parts of a pool, with a bare conductor that is in contact with the earth as it travels around the pool is a very good start of "doing more" and getting paid for more :cool: Thats right, use this as a marketing tool to increase the bottom line and add increased safety as well - a win-win situation.

[ June 30, 2005, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

I should have worded it a little better. After reading it this morning I see how it could be taken.

What I was doing was following the equipment grounding conductor from the motor back to the main panel and down to the system grounding electrode.

Yes I was being factious.
:D
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

Update. Good news! He will let it slide this time! :roll: Still can cite a code reference for the bonding conductor going around the bottom of the pool. He spoke to his colleagues and they all agree it must be around the base of the pool in contact with the earth. No not buried in the ground but just scratch the surface and throw a little sand or stone over it. :roll: This was not my job, I was helping another guy out but I was with him for the "debate". If I get bored I may call him about this. This same inspector does not want bubble covers used on outdoor receptacles because they could break off and leave no cover. A valid point but not up to him to make that code amendment.
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

electricmanscott

Are you under the 2005 cycle? If so then he may be referring to 680.26 (C). There is a lot of discussion about this section in my part of the country, central NC.
:)
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

I am aware of that section and I mentioned it to him. The words "equipotential bonding grid" were answered with a blank stare. There are no "paved walking surfaces" around this pool.
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

The reason that I ask that question is that some around here are confused about this new bonding grid in that they think that it must be installed under all plastic pools.

This is an ongoing debate just about every where the word pool is brought up. The idea that that all pools are required comes from the wording found in 680.26 (C) (3)
c. Securing. The below-grade grid shall be secured within or under the pool and deck media.

Where it states ?under the pool and deck? is the area of confusion that I keep hearing about. This is the number one question I hear is about this bonding grid.
:)
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

Many years ago I spent a summer wiring pools. We always ran the bond back through the trench to the main panel. I see this is no longer required, maybe it never was.

I now find myself installing my own pool and spa, and came upon this site in a google search.

To think I was just about to run a #4 (I was upsizing purposely) 140' back to my service. Now I find I only need to bond the pool wall to the pump motor frame.

After reading through 680 on Mike Holt's site, I don't see where I need to even hit the pool panel.

As an aside - I'm connecting the Spa with a 25' cord-and-plug (it's 4/4 SO cable) to a w/p "spa receptacle" which is w/p with the cover closed and in-use.

This is being done for tax purposes, as the township considers a spa with a cord-and-plug portable and nontaxable as an improvement, though it'd be pretty difficult to move an 8 x 8 x 38" deep spa. (It's staying put.)

The spa came set up for 30a 240v, though a simple change of a couple of pins in the controller box will allow both 6hp motors, 2 1 hp motors AND the heater to operate simultaniously. You just have to have the 60-70a to support it.

So my question is this: If I have a "portable" spa, connected via cord and plug, fed from a pool panel, where the pool IS "permanent" how do I, or do I even need to, bond the spa to the external bond grid?
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

Originally posted by LawnGuyLandSparky:
So my question is this: If I have a "portable" spa, connected via cord and plug, fed from a pool panel, where the pool IS "permanent" how do I, or do I even need to, bond the spa to the external bond grid?
Click to expand...
The EGC in the cord is all you need. (Spa has no external metal, and/or is within 5' of the pool, right?)
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
(A) Flexible Connections. Listed packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies or self-contained spas or hot tubs utilizing a factory-installed or assembled control panel or panelboard shall be permitted to use flexible connections as covered in 680.42(A)(1) and (A)(2).
(1) Flexible Conduit. Liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted in lengths of not more than 1.8 m (6 ft).
(2) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Cord-and-plug connections with a cord not longer than 4.6 m (15 ft) shall be permitted where protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
:)
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Originally posted by LawnGuyLandSparky:
So my question is this: If I have a "portable" spa, connected via cord and plug, fed from a pool panel, where the pool IS "permanent" how do I, or do I even need to, bond the spa to the external bond grid?
Click to expand...
The EGC in the cord is all you need. (Spa has no external metal, and/or is within 5' of the pool, right?)
Click to expand...
Hmmm, I had to go out and look. External metal - no. But it's not within 5' of the pool.
 
Re: Pool bonding, inspector, ugh.

Originally posted by jwelectric:
680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
(A) Flexible Connections. Listed packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies or self-contained spas or hot tubs utilizing a factory-installed or assembled control panel or panelboard shall be permitted to use flexible connections as covered in 680.42(A)(1) and (A)(2).
(1) Flexible Conduit. Liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted in lengths of not more than 1.8 m (6 ft).
(2) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Cord-and-plug connections with a cord not longer than 4.6 m (15 ft) shall be permitted where protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
:)
Click to expand...
Thanks JW. As I understand it, this GFCI receptacle for the spa cannot be within 10' of either the pool or spa.

Odd that a portable pool requires a 25' cord on it's circulation equipment.
 
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