Pool heat pump does NOT have a NEUTRAL connection, therefore, do NOT use a GFCI breaker?

[omsrobert]

What do I need to tell my electrician to install this swimming pool heat pump? While I assume he will know, I want to confirm details with him to assure my family's safety in the pool.

I fully expected that he was to install a GFCI breaker but the manual says to not use one. How is this safe??

Link to manual w/diagram and info here:
Pool heat pump manual

https://imgur.com/a/6055Ou8

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Unless you are on the 2020 code and installing the pool heater at an outside location at dwelling unit, the code does not require GFCI protection for that equipment.

The only rule requiring GFCI protection for pool heaters in Article 680 is in 680.28 and on;y applies to gas fired equipment.

 

[Little Bill]

Although not required, a GFCI breaker would work. It doesn't need a load side connection to function, it only needs a line side for the internal electronics.

 

[winnie]

The point about the neutral is a red herring. GFCI breakers work just fine without a load neutral.

Don has the correct answer.

Jon

 

[omsrobert]

Thank you. That is helpful. However, is this setup less safe because it doesn’t have a neutral for GFCI? Ie. What risks if any are there with this heat pump? It would be installed outdoors to an above ground pool.

 

[Little Bill]

Thank you. That is helpful. However, is this setup less safe because it doesn’t have a neutral for GFCI? Ie. What risks if any are there with this heat pump? It would be installed outdoors to an above ground pool.

It's not less safe without a neutral. The GFCI (2-pole) doesn't need the line side neutral to function. It will detect an imbalance between the two hot legs.

 

[winnie]

The GFCI will function just fine. The real question is why the manufacturer is saying 'don't use a GFCI'?

My guess is that the device while working just fine tends to trip GFCIs, probably because of leakage caused by capacitive coupling. This can be minimized but can never be eliminated.

Reliable ground bonding is far more important for shock protection for a fixed apparatus than a GFCI. Equipotential bonding is critical for a swimming pool. But the instruction to connect a #8 wire to a ground rod is _not_ equipotential bonding.

So that is two incorrect statements on this instruction sheet. I'd be wary of this manufacturer.

-Jon

 

[curt swartz]

It's not less safe without a neutral. The GFCI (2-pole) doesn't need the line side neutral to function. It will detect an imbalance between the two hot legs.

The GFCI DOES need the line side Neutral. It does not need the load side Neutral.

 

[Little Bill]

The GFCI DOES need the line side Neutral. It does not need the load side Neutral.

Mis-type, I meant load side as I said in post #3

 

[Buck Parrish]

Thank you. That is helpful. However, is this setup less safe because it doesn’t have a neutral for GFCI? Ie. What risks if any are there with this heat pump? It would be installed outdoors to an above ground pool.

I just installed a 50 amp inground pool heat pump. It works fine with gfci no neutral.


This no neutral thing could be argued it is more safe with no neutral. Simply because if the utilities neutral was ever lost. The neutrals to various equipment will be looking for a new path back to the source. The #8 equipotential bond is a pretty good path.
But with no neutral the two hots have almost 0 chance to ever being connected to the #8 equipotential bond cable.

I've been noticing that most of the pool equipment comes factory wired for 240 volts no neutral . I've wondered if safety was the reason for that. This could probably use it's own thread. sorry,

 

[augie47]

Looking at the picture & "on-line" paperwork, I see no mention of UL or any other NRTL. Do you know if the unit has 3rd party listing such as UL ?

 

[jap]

Looking at the picture & "on-line" paperwork, I see no mention of UL or any other NRTL. Do you know if the unit has 3rd party listing such as UL ?

That whole instruction sheet seems very unprofessional to me.

"Please" this,,,, "Breaker Box",,,,,"Hot Leads",, etc...

JAP>

 

[kwired]

I just installed a 50 amp inground pool heat pump. It works fine with gfci no neutral.


This no neutral thing could be argued it is more safe with no neutral. Simply because if the utilities neutral was ever lost. The neutrals to various equipment will be looking for a new path back to the source. The #8 equipotential bond is a pretty good path.
But with no neutral the two hots have almost 0 chance to ever being connected to the #8 equipotential bond cable.

I've been noticing that most of the pool equipment comes factory wired for 240 volts no neutral . I've wondered if safety was the reason for that. This could probably use it's own thread. sorry,

I think only chance of some sort of misconnection placing undesired current on the #8 EPB conductor would be if someone misconnected a neutral conductor to said EPB conductor instead of to a separate neutral that is supplied with the branch circuit. Otherwise that #8 should only tie to items it is bonding and the EGC that isn't intended to carry any current except during fault conditions.

 

[PFE]

What do I need to tell my electrician to install this swimming pool heat pump? While I assume he will know, I want to confirm details with him to assure my family's safety in the pool.

I fully expected that he was to install a GFCI breaker but the manual says to not use one. How is this safe??

Link to manual w/diagram and info here:
Pool heat pump manual

https://imgur.com/a/6055Ou8

If manufacturer specs says don’t use a GFCI breaker then you follow manufacture’s specs (it supersedes our electrical code requirements (example; Nutone exhaust fans when installed inside a shower or bath stall is NOT required to be GFCI protected while Panasonic fans are. Same with pool heaters or any other equipment.

 

[Little Bill]

If manufacturer specs says don’t use a GFCI breaker then you follow manufacture’s specs (it supersedes our electrical code requirements (example; Nutone exhaust fans when installed inside a shower or bath stall is NOT required to be GFCI protected while Panasonic fans are. Same with pool heaters or any other equipment.

Not in this case, but what if the Code says to use GFCI protection but the mfg says no, who do you follow?
Mfg specs do not overrule the NEC if it goes against the code.

 

[LarryFine]

I don't see how the presence or absence of a load neutral has any bearing.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If manufacturer specs says don’t use a GFCI breaker then you follow manufacture’s specs (it supersedes our electrical code requirements (example; Nutone exhaust fans when installed inside a shower or bath stall is NOT required to be GFCI protected while Panasonic fans are. Same with pool heaters or any other equipment.

A manufacturer's instruction can never delete a code requirement. If the code calls for GFCI protection, nothing in the instructions can change that.

The bath fan is different as the code does not require the GFCI protection, and the manufacturer's instructions is calling for protection over and above what the code requires.

 

[infinity]

A manufacturer's instruction can never delete a code requirement. If the code calls for GFCI protection, nothing in the instructions can change that.

The bath fan is different as the code does not require the GFCI protection, and the manufacturer's instructions is calling for protection over and above what the code requires.

I agree. The code is the minimum that needs to be followed and a manufacturer cannot require something that would make the installation non-code compliant. They can always require more than the minimum which is something that you may see with hot tubs, portable generators, etc.