POOL QUESTIONS

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bure961

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Farmingham, MA
I am not sure about this situation but here goes . This concerns a in ground pool that was installed at least 25 years ago. The concrete pad around the pool has been painted to increase its appearance. This is the area from edge of pool to about 4' away .
Can some one comment on the painted concrete if it would violate code and why ? Do most towns reinspect pools when buying or selling a home with a pool ? I have never wired a in ground pool and cannot find any info on my concerns.

Thanks for any help here.
 
There is no NEC violation. The only things you have to worry about is it being a possible slip Hazard, and if it was put on correctly... You'll know if it starts peeling off in 6 months the surface wasn't prepped correctly.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The painted concrete should have no effect on the code. Why would you worry about that?
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because putting an insulator over the top of the conductor could break equi-potential, which is the requirement (via bonding). how is this different than say wearing rubber crocs? the diff is, NEC requires the surface materials to be bonded to provide equi-potetntial of any faults, vs NEC says nothing about crocs. :thumbsup:

in reality, its a kludge of sorts. concrete needs bonded mesh, pavers need just a wire under the pavers. that section should just be labeled "best effort, hopefully you don't get shocked".
 
FionaZuppa said:
because putting an insulator over the top of the conductor could break equi-potential, which is the requirement (via bonding). how is this different than say wearing rubber crocs? the diff is, NEC requires the surface materials to be bonded to provide equi-potetntial of any faults, vs NEC says nothing about crocs. :thumbsup:

in reality, its a kludge of sorts. concrete needs bonded mesh, pavers need just a wire under the pavers. that section should just be labeled "best effort, hopefully you don't get shocked".
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25 years ago?
 
The Op's question seems to me to be whether the code can require that an equipotential grid be somehow made to include the surface of an insulator. I say it plainly cannot.
The principle underlying the concept of an equipotential grid is that all electrically conductive surfaces be held at the same electrical potential. The NEC explicitly refers, for example, to metal surfaces within a specified distance from the pool, not any and all surfaces.
If you argue that the insulating membrane might be damaged, I note that the other side of the membrane is probably part of the equipotential grid, so no harm on that front.

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If this a commercial/public pool not a residential backyard pool, the deck surface must be non-skid.
We have painted concrete decks on residential pools to spruce them up. The product I have used is a non-skid finish. Just common sense, any pool deck surface to be painted should be non-skid.

Prepped properly, it can last 3 + years. It's water based and easy to work with.

If there is a concern the pool is not properly bonded, call a certified company to test for it.

Public pools in New Jersey require bonding certification I'm pretty sure every 3 years.

We have found ladder and rail sockets will corrode quickly (usually aluminum) and fail for bonding. We use either bronze or stainless sockets for longevity.
 
Doesn't the shell of concrete pools get painted all the time?

Even if painted there are capacitive effects, but if everything on concrete side is properly bonded there is still no voltage gradients that will be subject to capacitive coupling to users of the pool, because pool water is also supposed to be bonded and everything within reach of users is at same potential - which is the whole point of equipotential bonding.

A little like saying something metal that is plastic coated wouldn't be allowed in the pool area even though the metal is bonded. Not familiar enough with pools to be any more specific then that.
 
kwired

There a couple of choices for finishes on concrete pools. There is paint and there is as what is termed in my trade, a plaster finish, which is a cement based coating.

Painted pools are generally painted every 3-4 years. This is mainly because the paint chemical content is not what is was in the past. Paint is now water based and don't last the 6+ years as in the past. Some public pools, seasonal mind you, are on a schedule to paint every 3 years and maybe sandblast and start all over every 6.
Plastered pools can last as long as 15 years before resurfacing.

There are pool deck products that are a combo of plastic and metal and must be bonded. Saftron is a company making ladders and rails of plastic that do not require bonding. However, the escutcheons/cups must be bonded if aluminum, bronze or stainless. There are plastic cups but the bolts are stainless. I've never used these as they look cheap to me.

As you mentioned the pool water must be bonded. There are few products available to meet the code. Surprisingly or surprisingly, not 100% of inspectors have checked for water bonding on my new builds. We of course, have been bonding the water as per code.
 
One other thing.

If we renovate a pool, any type, and it includes the patio removal, we must pull a permit and bring the pool up to it the current bonding code.

On concrete pools, we must locate the rebar in the structure and properly attach a bond lug. This most often requires chipping at the back of the structure to find the rebar. The 4 equidistant points as well, escutcheons, diving board bases-anything metal within 5' of the water. Then of course the perimeter grid and the bonding of the equipment.
Steel wall vinyl pools require attachment to the structure.

10 years ago an inspector required a bonding certification as part of the final on a residential pool after we completed the renovation.
 
Mystic Pools said:
kwired

There a couple of choices for finishes on concrete pools. There is paint and there is as what is termed in my trade, a plaster finish, which is a cement based coating.

Painted pools are generally painted every 3-4 years. This is mainly because the paint chemical content is not what is was in the past. Paint is now water based and don't last the 6+ years as in the past. Some public pools, seasonal mind you, are on a schedule to paint every 3 years and maybe sandblast and start all over every 6.
Plastered pools can last as long as 15 years before resurfacing.

There are pool deck products that are a combo of plastic and metal and must be bonded. Saftron is a company making ladders and rails of plastic that do not require bonding. However, the escutcheons/cups must be bonded if aluminum, bronze or stainless. There are plastic cups but the bolts are stainless. I've never used these as they look cheap to me.

As you mentioned the pool water must be bonded. There are few products available to meet the code. Surprisingly or surprisingly, not 100% of inspectors have checked for water bonding on my new builds. We of course, have been bonding the water as per code.
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Thanks for that information.

My thoughts on this were it shouldn't matter if you paint or not. The water is required to be bonded and so is the deck, perimeter and other conductive objects. Painting is sort of no different then having a non conductive shell. Having that thin layer of insulating material still leaves you with capacitive effects and bonding both sides of that thin layer shorts out that capacitor.
 
kwired said:
Thanks for that information.

My thoughts on this were it shouldn't matter if you paint or not. The water is required to be bonded and so is the deck, perimeter and other conductive objects. Painting is sort of no different then having a non conductive shell. Having that thin layer of insulating material still leaves you with capacitive effects and bonding both sides of that thin layer shorts out that capacitor.
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Correct. Paint or any surface material should not matter. Non-conductive shells are fiberglass pools and spas and actually inground vinyl pools with composite walls instead of steel walls. They still must meet other portion of code, i.e. water bonding, grid, etc....
Other optional surfaces I forgot to mention is tile. There are residential and commercial pools and spas that are completely tiled.
 
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