Poor wiring practice?

[jim mccloy]

I met with a landlord concerning some electrical work that needed done for a duplex apt. She showed me around and explained the scope of the work that needed done and when I removed the front panel off of the service panel I was surprised to find all the conductors feeding the branch circuits from the CB's are all white. No reidentification whatsoever. All the wires connected to the circuit breakers, save the range circuit, are like this. There are also 3 runs of wiremold exiting the main service panel and they all contain single white conductors...hots and neutrals together...going off to junction boxes that are exposed on the walls throughout the dwelling. These areas are all wiremold installations that feed receptacles. I removed some covers on the boxes and naturally found all white wires. Nearly every switch and receptacle is wired with white conductors with no reidentification.

My question is: knowing that the house is in this condition, and being that I'm asked to perform some electrical work, am I required to correct this situation?

Also, just as a sidenote, I discovered that the waterline bonding was cut at the water meter location due to a changeout and never replaced. There are also no ground rods for either service to this dwelling. The main service on the other side of the duplex IS grounded to the main waterline.

 

[vasparky]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

wow thats all I can say wow.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Anybody want to bet on how many hots and neutrals are reversed?

 

[ceb]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

If it were me I would show the landlord what the problem is and explain to her what has been done wrong and why it should be corrected. If she didn't or could not understand I would have a inspector explain it. If she still didn't want to or the inspector didn't make her correct it I would walk away from the job. Here is a situation that could happen: Say I am John "think I'm a handy man" Doe I rented an appartment. One of the receptacles is not working right I open it up and I see all white wire, HGTV says the white doesn't carry the power. I stick my screwdriver and or my hand in the box and get the s### knocked out of me. You are the last electrician to work on the house so you are the one that did it. I'm coming after you and the landlord with my lawyer and doctor who says I will never work again because of the tremendous electrical shock I received. The landlord is going to say that you were the last to work on the system so you must have done it. Now you must prove you didn't do it. can you? can you afford to?

 

[jim mccloy]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Ceb...my thoughts exactly. I'm cocerned about liability.

 

[iwire]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

What do you want to see happen?

 

[ceb]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Jim,
The reason I gave such a vivid example is on my day job I do maint. and construction for the prison system in my state and I see people all the time working hard to find some small injury to turn into a life long paycheck. True story. At one of the units the walk through gates were opened with a 120V solenoid. The hot wire had gotten nicked when the wire was pulled and over time it grounded to the conduit but it wasn't enough to trip the breaker. A female officer was going through and had her hand on the gate when the control officer hit the button to open the gate. needless to say she took a jolt. 4 years and $50,000.00 plus medical and her reg. pay check while she was out she was better. I was sent to fix the problem I put my meter on the gate and hit the button it was only getting 70v I put my hand on it. yes it was a nice tingle but I'm still working and didn't get PAYED.

 

[jim mccloy]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Well, ideally, I would like to change the wiring out so that it's a more safe and proper installation...but this woman has alot more work that needs done and I'm afraid that it will cost her too much.

I feel bad about it but I don't think I want to do any work for her. But on the other hand I feel she has a dangerous situation and I want to do something to help her.

There are also receptacles on the second and third floors that are tapped with romex that feed back out through the wall and along the outside of the wall (stapled to the top of the baseboard)and on to other receptacles mounted IN the wall. And in a few other areas someone has installed a plug end (that plugs into an existing receptacle) and has run this through a wall and is hard wired into more receptacles...effectively making these receptacles hot only when this plug attachment is plugged in.

It's just alot of work and she's gonna have some money wrapped up in it. She just bought the place and wants it all ready to rent in 2 weeks.

No way.

 

[iwire]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

80.9 Application.

(B) Existing Installations. Existing electrical installations that do not comply with the provisions of this Code shall be permitted to be continued in use unless the authority having jurisdiction determines that the lack of conformity with this Code presents an imminent danger to occupants. Where changes are required for correction of hazards, a reasonable amount of time shall be given for compliance, depending on the degree of the hazard.

(C) Additions, Alterations, or Repairs. Additions, alterations, or repairs to any building, structure, or premises shall conform to that required of a new building without requiring the existing building to comply with all the requirements of this Code. Additions, alterations, installations, or repairs shall not cause an existing building to become unsafe or to adversely affect the performance of the building as determined by the authority having jurisdiction. Electrical wiring added to an existing service, feeder, or branch circuit shall not result in an installation that violates the provisions of the Code in force at the time the additions are made.

This may or may not apply, in this state (MA) we do not use article 80, but we have a similar rule.

[ September 10, 2003, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[jim mccloy]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

My inspector is currently out of town...but I have a feeling he would want to see these things corrected.

The owner also wants an interconnected smoke detector system installed for the duplex.

Probably a good idea. The future tenants just might need it.

 

[ceb]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Jim,
Answer these questions:
Would you live there?
Would you let one of your children live there?
What will you do if you walk away from this and did not say any thing and in 3 months it burns and some one dies?
She bought this place to make money what she spends for repairs is a wright off so don't feel bad for her having to spend money to fix the place. I'm sure she didn't buy it site unseen.

 

[jim mccloy]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Ceb...I just caught your post about the prison guard...yea, I can see that happening.

And that's just my point. See, the city inspector told her that all the bedrooms in this dwelling need to have at least 2 receptacles. (this is a very old house) And I read the inspectors report. Now, if I go and extend wiring from these receptacles to new receps then...am I aiding and abetting if I don't change the rest of the wiring to make it code compliant?

Ethics aside, maybe it's just a matter of what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong.

 

[ceb]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Jim,
In my view of this situation you would be liable if you did work on this house and didn't correct the many problems you have described ( and I am sure its worse) You are correct right is right. Let your conscious be your guide.

 

[jro]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Jim, explain to the landlord the problems she has give her a bid for the work, she is either going to accept or refuse, she's in business to make money, and so are you, feeling sorry for her will not change the problem, if you feel this is not a job you want to get involved in walk away from it, look at it this way, would she lower her rent just because a tenant thinks its to high, I would have to say no.

 

[iwire]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Originally posted by ceb:
Jim,
Answer these questions:
Would you live there?
Would you let one of your children live there?
What will you do if you walk away from this and did not say any thing and in 3 months it burns and some one dies?

I must be missing something as I see no imminent danger to occupants.

How is a conductor being white going to start a fire?

Check for reversed wiring at the outlets, and fix any you find, but if the conductors are in good shape why replace them?

JMO, Bob

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Jim: This had been a very interesting thread to read, I thank you for posting it. I think you owe it to the next poor ba#$%^d that has to work there to at least re-identify the conductors you work on. I also think that would be unethical not to.

 

[cwsnsons]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Ryan,

From the references cited by others above, it would seem that Jim would have to re-identify the white-wires-used-as-hots on any switches or receps he works on, that would be "ethical". That would go for any other aspect of those same devices; once he works them, they must conform to the currently in effect code for that jurisdiction.

Chris

 

[gregoryelectricinc]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Yes this is an interesting thread to read. Personally, I would make the needed repairs(all of them) and bill my customer. T & M if she would let me, quoted if she wants it that way. I have to disagree with Bob on this one, there most certainly is danger in leaving the wiring "as-is". Code does not allow for the re-identification of #12 wire in this particular situation but my larger concern would be the exposed NM cable stapled to the baseboards. What happens when a tenant puts a metal file cabinet against the wall and cuts into he hot wire in one of those cables? It's a tough situation, I understand, but our customers trust us to make sure they are safe. Most of them don't understand much, if anything, about electricity.

 

[caj1962]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

Jim
I know this has already been said. But the owner is in this to make money, or she would not have said I want this ready in 2 weeks. You feeling sorry for her or her not having the money is not your problem. If you give her an explanation and price to fix the deficiencies in the house and she does not want to pay you.Fine walk away you did your best. If there is a fire or someone gets zapped you are going to be able to sleep well.At that time the burden is on the land lord.

 

[bennie]

Re: Poor wiring practice?

I'm sure everyone knows this, but it appears the worst case is polarity reversal. This can easily be determined with a static tester on the screw shells of light fixtures with the switch off.

The static tester can also check polarity on receptacles.

Electricity is color blind