Possible overloaded service feeders.

[Coppersmith]

Hypothetically, if an owner has a 100 amp split-section main panel (therefore no main breaker) that has been significantly added to over the years including a subpanel (on a 50 amp breaker), I can see the unprotected service feeders possibly being overloaded. A load calculation would have to be performed to be sure.

If an electrician were hired to relocate the meter and refeed the above mess, should s/he size the new service feeders properly at 100 amps, or oversize them in anticipation of trouble? Oversizing while adding a safety factor does make the job more expensive and some clients are very price sensitive.

 

[nickelec]

Maybe ask Poco for some usage data?

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[Hv&Lv]

Hypothetically, if an owner has a 100 amp split-section main panel (therefore no main breaker) that has been significantly added to over the years including a subpanel (on a 50 amp breaker), I can see the unprotected service feeders possibly being overloaded. A load calculation would have to be performed to be sure.

If an electrician were hired to relocate the meter and refeed the above mess, should s/he size the new service feeders properly at 100 amps, or oversize them in anticipation of trouble? Oversizing while adding a safety factor does make the job more expensive and some clients are very price sensitive.

Is s/he also changing the panel(s)?
if not I would say install a meter/main combo panel, refeed the existing panel to 100 amps (since it’s a 100 amp panel), remove and refeed the added sub panel from the new panel at the proper amperage for the panels rating.
possibly even remove some of the added circuits on the old panel and refeed them from the new combo panel.

 

[Coppersmith]

In this scenario let's say that the owner wants to spend as little money as possible so they don't want the panels replaced or rewired, just refed.

A meter/main panel is a good idea to add an OCPD on the service feeder, however it adds a lot of cost compared to a plain old meter can. I'm just trying how to figure out the least expensive way to do this scenario.

 

[augie47]

In reworking the service will the new install require an overcurrent device ahead of existing panel to comply with 230.70 ??

(Post 3 appeared while I was typing)

 

[petersonra]

Hypothetically, if an owner has a 100 amp split-section main panel (therefore no main breaker) that has been significantly added to over the years including a subpanel (on a 50 amp breaker), I can see the unprotected service feeders possibly being overloaded. A load calculation would have to be performed to be sure.

If an electrician were hired to relocate the meter and refeed the above mess, should s/he size the new service feeders properly at 100 amps, or oversize them in anticipation of trouble? Oversizing while adding a safety factor does make the job more expensive and some clients are very price sensitive.

I would start with a load calculation. Personally I do not think it is a good idea for electricians to be guessing at what someone might need at some point in the future. You can tell the customer what you find and maybe nudge them in the direction of having a little to spare, but the reality is the POCO will put in whatever size transformer they think is adequate anyway. Personally I'd be inclined to look at a MCB panel replacement.

 

[Hv&Lv]

In this scenario let's say that the owner wants to spend as little money as possible so they don't want the panels replaced or rewired, just refed.

A meter/main panel is a good idea to add an OCPD on the service feeder, however it adds a lot of cost compared to a plain old meter can. I'm just trying how to figure out the least expensive way to do this scenario.

And I understand completely trying to save all that you can..
but, when I read “should s/he size the new service feeders properly at 100 amps, or oversize them in anticipation of trouble?“, the underlined parts threw up a red flag for me If the panel is a 100 amp panel

 

[kwired]

Why are you relocating the meter?

That usually means some other construction is going on that made a need to move it, in that case they maybe need to bite the bullet and do it right.

If meter failed and is just being replaced - well one may need to consider if overloading is a reason for failure - and then do it right.

If they want cheap as possible, maybe they aren't worth having as a client. If changing/relocating meter only and load is questionable tell them you are still installing a 100 amp main regardless and if it is overloaded they will end up dealing with frequent tripping and that it will cost even more to come back and make it right than to do it right the first time.

 

[Coppersmith]

I've seen this scenario several times while doing other work. I haven't had to do a job on one yet. There are companies that buy up old houses and rent them out with a minimum of repair. They are very price sensitive to any repairs they are forced to do. In thinking about how I would handle a situation like this, I saw a lot of red flags too.

 

[Coppersmith]

Why are you relocating the meter?

In doing a job the other day, I noticed the electrical meter at this house had been walled inside by an addition. It's just a matter of time before the POCO notices and forces the owner to relocate it. The panels were are described above. I'm not doing this job, just wondering how I would do it. I know the owners and I know they won't spend any extra money.

 

[kwired]

In doing a job the other day, I noticed the electrical meter at this house had been walled inside by an addition. It's just a matter of time before the POCO notices and forces the owner to relocate it. The panels were are described above. I'm not doing this job, just wondering how I would do it. I know the owners and I know they won't spend any extra money.

What will AHJ require to pass inspection?

Will they be cited for no permits when they added the addition that ended up walling it in and be forced to spend money they weren't planning on anyway?

 

[Coppersmith]

In reworking the service will the new install require an overcurrent device ahead of existing panel to comply with 230.70 ??

The situation I noticed that I am basing this hypothetical on complied with 230.70 and 230.71(A) in that there was a split-section panel with six breakers in the top section.

 

[Coppersmith]

What will AHJ require to pass inspection?

Will they be cited for no permits when they added the addition that ended up walling it in and be forced to spend money they weren't planning on anyway?

I can't answer that question. When I work for people and I see code violations that are out-of-scope of the job I inform them that the inspector could force a repair if s/he notices it and that would cost extra. I tell them I have no control over that.

 

[kwired]

I can't answer that question. When I work for people and I see code violations that are out-of-scope of the job I inform them that the inspector could force a repair if s/he notices it and that would cost extra. I tell them I have no control over that.

When I know the inspector will require correction I tell them that. When it is something I'm not planning to touch but still in question, the inspector is called and takes a look before we even do the project so that everyone knows what will be required.

Now in your OP situation I guess it is a matter of informing owner what may be required someday. When it comes time the POCO makes them move meter, I'd either update the way I see needs done or at least get inspector's blessing before even touching anything if they insist in doing as little as possible.

 

[Eddie702]

This is no different than a multi family with a three position meter socket and 3 100 amp panels. The load calculation says a 4/0 aluminum drop is ok to feed the meters. Could that be loaded to 300 amps...sure but it's all in the load calc

 

[kwired]

This is no different than a multi family with a three position meter socket and 3 100 amp panels. The load calculation says a 4/0 aluminum drop is ok to feed the meters. Could that be loaded to 300 amps...sure but it's all in the load calc

And part of OP's concern is there may be too much load, so yes at very least he needs either load calc or some actual demand history