Power factor correction

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charlie b

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Is this a residential installation? If so, the customer is not going to like the fact that, after paying for the device and paying you to install it, they are not going to save anything at all on their electric bill. You may want to reconsider being involved with this product, or any of several others that make similar claims. Do a search on the forum, and you will see several discussions of similar products. You will also see that the discussions have all led to the same conclusion: Utilities do not charge homeowners an extra fee for having a low power factor, so there is nothing for a homeowner to save.
 
Rewire

Rewire

Senior Member
Location
Lake of the Ozarks
Several questions you should ask ,
1 Do you want repeat business from this customer
2 Do you want good recommendations from this customer
3 Do you like a good reputation
4 Do you understand why these things will not do what they say
If you answered yes to these questions then proceed down the path of your choice.
 
charlie

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Good comments Charlie and you are 100% correct. Walk away from this device since the residential customer will save nothing and you will be blamed for supporting this product. :rolleyes:
 
G

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
080714-1923 EST

Why have so many threads started on this subject?

In my opinion the advertisements are fraudulent and I would expect there would be some government legal action taken. But so far that does not seem to be occurring.

.
 
R

Riograndeelectric

Senior Member
Location
Lakewood Colorado
Rewire said:
Several questions you should ask ,
1 Do you want repeat business from this customer
2 Do you want good recommendations from this customer
3 Do you like a good reputation
4 Do you understand why these things will not do what they say
If you answered yes to these questions then proceed down the path of your choice.
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I am actullay a 3rd party to this install . I was contacted by the slaes rep for this product to simply install the unit. so I am just making the money on the install.
the business that is having this installed does not even know me. I would love to get some work from the business besides this install. the video says some thing to the fact that several colleges and NASA have aproved this unit. so I take it is is not true
 
brian john

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
He is my professional take as stated in numerous post.

HOODOO VOODOO, crap junk, snake oil and if you install this garbage knowing the falsehood of possible saving and hype of the salesmen involved you are no better that the hucksters pushing this CRAP. And if I was in a position to to pull your license (if it was proven you knew this was crap), I'd make sure you done in this profession.
 
mivey

mivey

Senior Member
Riograndeelectric said:
I am actullay a 3rd party to this install . I was contacted by the slaes rep for this product to simply install the unit. so I am just making the money on the install.
the business that is having this installed does not even know me. I would love to get some work from the business besides this install. the video says some thing to the fact that several colleges and NASA have aproved this unit. so I take it is is not true
Click to expand...
Don't buy into the "name dropping" ploy. There are several thread here discussing these junk devices. It is true that they can offset inductive load and can improve the power factor. What is false is that they bring the homeowner any value. The POCO would be the only direct beneficiary.

This topic is one that eventually needs to be included in a sticky, like the face up/down threads, etc. The salesmen for this junk are persistent.
 
charlie b

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Riograndeelectric said:
. . . the business that is having this installed . . . .
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OK, so I see it is a commercial or industrial customer, and not a residence. That may change things, but I doubt it. Do yourself and the business a favor. Ask to see their electric bill. Or just tell them to look at it themselves. You are looking for any kind of an extra charge for low power factor or for KVAR loading; look for anything that resembles a higher price than just the energy charge (i.e., kilowatt hours) and the applicable taxes. If there is nothing extra on the bill, no extra fee related to power factor, then the customer has nothing to save by installing this product.

I did not read through this product's web site, and I did not see any video. I believe there would have been no lies directly spoken, and no promises made that could not be fulfilled. But if you read, and listen carefully, you will detect no clear statements that have any real information or valuable promises.
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
charlie b said:
OK, so I see it is a commercial or industrial customer, and not a residence. That may change things, but I doubt it.
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This scam doesn't work as well for residential customers, at least not for the big bucks.

It normally works by setting the customer up with a "commercial lease agreement". A commercial lease agreement is just another way of letting a business buy equipment that they need on credit. The company ( scammer) uses the credit of the business ( mark) to set up a commercial lease agreement, the cost of the equipment also includes the services of the consultant and installation cost. A capacitor that cost $500 from the supplier will end up costing the customer $5000, now the customer has a lease ageement for $5000 in equipment. They are suposed to save the money for the lease agreement with reduced energy cost. ( it doesn't happen but they are not getting their money back).

On paper it looks as if the customer just decided to invest $5000 in equipment that they really didn't need based on advice recieved from a consultant. I'm sure that there is something illegal about the operation but it's really hard to pin down. These people are really pretty darned slick.

Riograndeelectric. If you want to check to see if the customer is being scammed just ask about the commercial lease agreement. It will be there.
I'm not going to say the name but I can even guess the name of the financial institution.
 
weressl

weressl

Esteemed Member
Location
Texas by the Gulf, geat crab, great shrimp
gar said:
080714-1923 EST

Why have so many threads started on this subject?

In my opinion the advertisements are fraudulent and I would expect there would be some government legal action taken. But so far that does not seem to be occurring.

.
Click to expand...

That's the American way.

Remember P.T. Barnum's motto: in every minute there is a new sucker born!
 
T

tajaj

Member
I install and repair powerfactor corecting capacitors all the time the pc requires them on oil well motors you just cant over correct or they get upset and mail nasty letters when they test the line. they seem to help balance out three phase lines and lessen dips in voltage. i would not think a home would have that much powerfactor problem as the motor loads are already corrected in the motor of most loads and other loads are not affected.
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Riograndeelectric said:
has any one heard of this. or installed one?
curious as to wheather they do what the say they do. I am supposed to installl one of these for a customer

http://www.energyindependencestartshere.com/
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When looking at a web site for a business it's important to note information not given.

They actually give out no real information about the business.
How long in business?
Where is the business located?
Who actually runs the business?
What are their qualifications as energy consultants? If they have engineers on staff why not list them?
Even the phone number is not traceable to get a location. Why not give both local and 800 number?
Where are they incorporated and just who are the corporate officers?
No name for a contact is listed.

You normally don't see a legitimate business that doesn't give out this type of information.

What I see is a big Red flag that states " just you try and find me".
 
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growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
G

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
080715-1313 EST

tajaj:

If there is no penalty for bad power factor and real power is what the KWH meter reads, then power factor correction does not change your cost of power.

There are probably virtually zero residential customers that are charged for bad power factor. And from other posts and my own experience many commercial customers have no penalty for bad power factor, and it may be the majority of commercial customers.

It is a different story for an industrial customer.

In our residential and commercial areas the power company has power factor correction capacitors mount at various locations on poles.

It makes great sense for your power company to require power factor correction at pump motor locations. This reduces line size and power loss, and thus reduces capital and operational costs, and ultimately the customer's cost.

.
 
T

tajaj

Member
yep just what i said tariff they charge you more. commercial residential industrial farm and oilfield. electrical work is cool that is why i started as an electrician. even use capacitors on grain elevators now there is some fun work. residential where i come from has 100 hp three phase motors pumpin oil in the back yard less than 500' from the back door try and sleep with a beam unit runnin out back but it beats the one lunger that was there for 35 years.
 
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