Power recording and quality analysis

[PetrosA]

I've been kinda banging my head against the wall lately over this challenge. I have a few customers for whom I either need to do some datalogging of power quality, specifically looking for voltage spikes and surges that could be causing flicker with LEDs and/or damage to electronics, or logging of power consumption to find causes of high bills. Either way, I deal mostly with single phase 120/240 installations.

What I see pricewise online is mind numbing. I can't justify spending $3,000 or more on a test instrument that I'll use a few times a year, but if there are cheaper options, I must be missing them. I could rent, and have in the past, but that gets expensive fast and I don't think I can get my residential customers to agree to hundreds of dollars in rental fees in addition to my rates.

So my question is, what is the minimum tool that I need to do this kind of datalogging where I can check either for loads over a period of days or for voltage issues that may be in the range of a few cycles? I'm guessing I need at least four channels - two current and two voltage to get the info I need. Any recommendations?

Thanks!

 

[gar]

151116-1026 EST

For low cost the TED 1000 system can be useful for some of your goals.

The 1000 is not made anymore, but there are possibly used ones available.

Time resolution and averaging is 1 second, not your several cycles. The newer models, such as 5000, may imply 1 second, but really are not. These are in the 2 to 5 second range, and a thing they call Spyder is even slower.

You only have one power channel and one voltage channel even though you might there are two of each.

See a sample of 1000 data at my website
http://beta-a2.com/energy.html
Photo PE1 ( Figure 9.8.2.2 ) . This has 1 second time resolution. About 1/4 webpage down.

See more at http://beta-a2.com/EE-photos.html
Starting at P22, about 2/3 down on the web page.
And last on the page is P30 that shows an expanded time range for the start up of a freezer compressor. The 1 second shift of the power pulse vs voltage dip is a TED problem.

In the newer TED systems you can get the sum of 120-0-120 or either 120 alone, but with at least a 2 second averaging time. If you were you to rewrite the software in the TED 1000 MTU (Measuring and Transmitting Unit) you could get shorter time response. The power measuring chip in the MTU has a lot of capability.

More later if you want.

.

 

[ron]

When we need a meter, we use http://www.electrorent.com/products/power-analysis-recorders-loggers

 

[Bugman1400]

Intellirent is another rental company that many PoCos use:

http://www.intellirentco.com/

 

[PetrosA]

Thanks Gar. I think that's a little more complicated to get working properly than I can handle. I've seen something similar that may work, but it's hard to tell http://www.ekmmetering.com/120-240v-package.html

 

[mgookin]

I've been kinda banging my head against the wall lately over this challenge. I have a few customers for whom I either need to do some datalogging of power quality, specifically looking for voltage spikes and surges that could be causing flicker with LEDs and/or damage to electronics, or logging of power consumption to find causes of high bills. Either way, I deal mostly with single phase 120/240 installations.

What I see pricewise online is mind numbing. I can't justify spending $3,000 or more on a test instrument that I'll use a few times a year, but if there are cheaper options, I must be missing them. I could rent, and have in the past, but that gets expensive fast and I don't think I can get my residential customers to agree to hundreds of dollars in rental fees in addition to my rates.

So my question is, what is the minimum tool that I need to do this kind of datalogging where I can check either for loads over a period of days or for voltage issues that may be in the range of a few cycles? I'm guessing I need at least four channels - two current and two voltage to get the info I need. Any recommendations?

Thanks!

I use Extech DL160. They were bought out by FLIR. http://www.extech.com/instruments/resources/manuals/DL160_UM.pdf

By all means I'm not saying this is the best available, but for a 2 channel priced at $300 and considering all the accessories and software that comes with it, you can afford to throw them around and leave them in odd places for whatever intervals are necessary.

We run one of them 24/7 as a monitoring station to verify product performance during and following unpredictable solar storms, power outages, etc. (anything which may concern a customer) and these loggers do a great job at that. This logger was essential in debugging new product builds and now we just let it run in perpetuity. We download and do a time synch about once weekly.

FLIR has good engineers who do provide good support. And that raises the issue of why is support necessary. The logger is rated 10-600VAC. When I got the first one it read 0VAC as 50-ish VAC on one channel and recently the other channel on that same logger started reporting 0VAC as 37VAC. They offered to replace it and I'll take them up on that - one day. All I really need to know is whether I have 120VAC or not being reported. It also provides a log of the POCO line voltage which around here seems to be 119-123VAC per leg on a 208V 3p system.

If you want to check one out I suggest you buy it from somewhere where you can return it if you don't like it. (Amazon maybe?) For $300 it's a cheap test.

 

[PetrosA]

I've rented before, but my experience was that shipping is the real killer when renting as it drastically inflated the costs I had to pass on to the customer (they include shipping time in the rental period, so you're stuck with overnight or two-day shipping). It was fine for a commercial customer, but for resi, it's a tough nut to crack. My last rental was an Amprobe DM III for one week that cost almost $500. I know for a fact that neither of these customers are willing to pay that much.

 

[PetrosA]

View attachment 13816



I use Extech DL160.

Thanks, I'll look into that. Can't say I've had good luck with Extech in the past, but maybe this would be worth it?

 

[Besoeker]

I've been kinda banging my head against the wall lately over this challenge. I have a few customers for whom I either need to do some datalogging of power quality, specifically looking for voltage spikes and surges that could be causing flicker with LEDs and/or damage to electronics, or logging of power consumption to find causes of high bills. Either way, I deal mostly with single phase 120/240 installations.

What I see pricewise online is mind numbing. I can't justify spending $3,000 or more on a test instrument that I'll use a few times a year, but if there are cheaper options, I must be missing them. I could rent, and have in the past, but that gets expensive fast and I don't think I can get my residential customers to agree to hundreds of dollars in rental fees in addition to my rates.

So my question is, what is the minimum tool that I need to do this kind of datalogging where I can check either for loads over a period of days or for voltage issues that may be in the range of a few cycles? I'm guessing I need at least four channels - two current and two voltage to get the info I need. Any recommendations?

Thanks!

If it is used just a few times a year, renting might be the best option.

 

[Besoeker]

I've been kinda banging my head against the wall lately over this challenge. I have a few customers for whom I either need to do some datalogging of power quality, specifically looking for voltage spikes and surges that could be causing flicker with LEDs and/or damage to electronics, or logging of power consumption to find causes of high bills. Either way, I deal mostly with single phase 120/240 installations.

What I see pricewise online is mind numbing. I can't justify spending $3,000 or more on a test instrument that I'll use a few times a year, but if there are cheaper options, I must be missing them. I could rent, and have in the past, but that gets expensive fast and I don't think I can get my residential customers to agree to hundreds of dollars in rental fees in addition to my rates.

So my question is, what is the minimum tool that I need to do this kind of datalogging where I can check either for loads over a period of days or for voltage issues that may be in the range of a few cycles? I'm guessing I need at least four channels - two current and two voltage to get the info I need. Any recommendations?

Thanks!

I know that is UK based:

http://www.livingston.co.uk/s_electrical-industrial-test/power-quality-and-energy-monitoring?gclid=CPjVr4TElckCFQs8Gwod7pQKkw

But it might give you some ideas.

 

[GeorgeB]

I use what I consider medium speed data acquisition for hydraulics with multiple channels. For fun, I hooked a PT (PT was a 6VAC transformer from my ham radio days when tubes were used). I was able to record 4800 samples/second for 1 channel. Their DI-710USB and high speed software is $820.00. Their Ethernet version with an SD card is $1195.00

Using the FFT feature, I looked at the harmonics seen through the PT.

If connected to a computer, you're limited only by hard disk size.

Competitors offer slightly different feature/benefits, but I prefer Dataq's included software for my uses.

 

[mgookin]

Thanks, I'll look into that. Can't say I've had good luck with Extech in the past, but maybe this would be worth it?

It's the cheapest test I could find and it's good enough for what we need.

 

[PetrosA]

At this point I'm considering biting the bullet and saving up for a PEL 103. Does anyone have experience with one?

 

[iwire]

I could rent, and have in the past, but that gets expensive fast and I don't think I can get my residential customers to agree to hundreds of dollars in rental fees in addition to my rates.

Testing is one of the last areas we as electricians have not dropped our drawers and bent over.

Let's not loose that too, testing is expensive, your knowledge is worth a good rate, don't sell it for short money.

 

[PetrosA]

Testing is one of the last areas we as electricians have not dropped our drawers and bent over.

Let's not loose that too, testing is expensive, your knowledge is worth a good rate, don't sell it for short money.

I totally understand and thank you for the compliment. Here's the situation. I have a residential customer that had me install LED track heads, LED retrofit lamps, LED sconces, etc. throughout the house and they flicker periodically. The rental place is telling me I need a Fluke 1750 to troubleshoot flicker at $600/week because it's an $18,000 piece of equipment. Even the rep thinks that's too high a price for a residential customer, but it is what it is. With my charge on top, we're looking at at least $1000. Would you pay someone $1000 to come to your house to try and diagnose anything? If the issue didn't present during the week, would you pay another $1000 to monitor a second week? I totally understand how a business can justify paying thousands to get production back online or to conform with requirements, but I haven't come across a homeowner yet who would pay that to check some flickering lights. At the end of the day, this is all BS that should be dealt with by LED manufacturers and dimmer manufacturers before the product is even released but it's not, and we're being forced to deal with it as electricians.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I totally understand and thank you for the compliment. Here's the situation. I have a residential customer that had me install LED track heads, LED retrofit lamps, LED sconces, etc. throughout the house and they flicker periodically. The rental place is telling me I need a Fluke 1750 to troubleshoot flicker at $600/week because it's an $18,000 piece of equipment. Even the rep thinks that's too high a price for a residential customer, but it is what it is. With my charge on top, we're looking at at least $1000. Would you pay someone $1000 to come to your house to try and diagnose anything? If the issue didn't present during the week, would you pay another $1000 to monitor a second week? I totally understand how a business can justify paying thousands to get production back online or to conform with requirements, but I haven't come across a homeowner yet who would pay that to check some flickering lights. At the end of the day, this is all BS that should be dealt with by LED manufacturers and dimmer manufacturers before the product is even released but it's not, and we're being forced to deal with it as electricians.

yes, we are. it's funny. you and i have been sniveling about this for a week or more,
about the perfidious pricing and dubious quality of fluke, and better options.... what i have
observed in my own work, if i buy a tool, the customer shows up who it's needed for.

the title 24 certifications i've been doing of late have a need for things that don't exist
yet, to speed the work process up. so i have customers showing up that i could benefit
from tools that don't exist, yet.

what is really needed, is a device that could provide a fast test for daylight harvesting,
where the three required tests could be done quickly. with wattstopper, there is a little
handheld remote that will set the lighting up automatically. it's effortless. certifying it's
in compliance is a whole 'nother thing. i need to figure out an automated way of doing this.
there is a full daylight, partial daylight, and no daylight test, and the light levels have to
have certain ratios and proportions for the install to pass. it's somewhat of a PITA.

another is demand response. there needs to be a 15% reduction of the total lighting load,
and there are two sets of measurements that need to be taken. and the easiest way is
to monitor the entire lighting panel, and log it. so, i need a three phase logger, as well.

but what i most need, is the transporter room from the starship enterprise. monday, get
up early, and drive to san diego. then when that one is done, drive to san francisco, timing
it to miss LA traffic. get a room in scotts valley. do two certs in san francisco tuesday, and
drive home.

 

[ActionDave]

yes, we are. it's funny. you and i have been sniveling about this for a week or more,
about the perfidious pricing and dubious quality of fluke, and better options.... what i have
observed in my own work, if i buy a tool, the customer shows up who it's needed for.......


but what i most need, is the transporter room from the starship enterprise. monday, get
up early, and drive to san diego. then when that one is done, drive to san francisco, timing
it to miss LA traffic. get a room in scotts valley. do two certs in san francisco tuesday, and
drive home.

Time to stop looking at motor cycles and start looking a air planes?

 

[ATSman]

I totally understand and thank you for the compliment. Here's the situation. I have a residential customer that had me install LED track heads, LED retrofit lamps, LED sconces, etc. throughout the house and they flicker periodically. The rental place is telling me I need a Fluke 1750 to troubleshoot flicker at $600/week because it's an $18,000 piece of equipment. Even the rep thinks that's too high a price for a residential customer, but it is what it is. With my charge on top, we're looking at at least $1000. Would you pay someone $1000 to come to your house to try and diagnose anything? If the issue didn't present during the week, would you pay another $1000 to monitor a second week? I totally understand how a business can justify paying thousands to get production back online or to conform with requirements, but I haven't come across a homeowner yet who would pay that to check some flickering lights. At the end of the day, this is all BS that should be dealt with by LED manufacturers and dimmer manufacturers before the product is even released but it's not, and we're being forced to deal with it as electricians.

Google Fluke 43B. I picked one up on eBay used for around $1500 but I had to do a lot of searching for one in decent shape. It is single phase and can record current and voltage transients, sags, RMS, power,harmonics, inrush current, ohms, temp etc. The data can be downloaded to a laptop using the FlukeView software for better viewing. It can also be used as a hand held oscilloscope.
Why buy a 3 phase meter when you say you mostly work on single phase

 

[electrofelon]

Thanks Gar. I think that's a little more complicated to get working properly than I can handle. I've seen something similar that may work, but it's hard to tell http://www.ekmmetering.com/120-240v-package.html

I have installed several dozen EKM meters for sub-metering applications. I was happy with them. I am not sure what the recording resolution is in the dash software and cant seem to find that info. I have considering getting one of these set ups for measuring peak demand and probably will the next it comes up.

 

[ptonsparky]

Google Fluke 43B. I picked one up on eBay used for around $1500 but I had to do a lot of searching for one in decent shape. It is single phase and can record current and voltage transients, sags, RMS, power,harmonics, inrush current, ohms, temp etc. The data can be downloaded to a laptop using the FlukeView software for better viewing. It can also be used as a hand held oscilloscope.
Why buy a 3 phase meter when you say you mostly work on single phase

I have a 43B but if I had the choice of doing it over I would go for the 3 phase capabilities. After 1500, 3000 isn't that much more, especially if you have plans of working a few more years.

At the time I bought the 43 I was doing mostly residential and small commercial. That changed.