Powersoak sink commercial application and GFCI

[Sillfmo]

All, I am a facility manager for a DOD facility with a Powersoak sink. The sink is 208/3p/50A/60hz hardwired to a GFCI breaker in a Siemens panel. Since it's install just over a year ago we have had issues with tripping the GFCI breaker. After investigation by the manufacture technicians it has been determined to be a continual nuisance trip from the sink motor and an imbalance. The manufacture of Powersoak is telling us there is no requirement for GFCI on their sinks and thus not a warranty issue. The electrical contractor who did the install is telling me it should be on a GFCI breaker. From my recall these don't fall under the NEC 680 application but I haven't kept up with the last two updates and how they might apply. This is causing some conflict and I was hoping I might get some input from smart folks on this forum.
Any input would be welcome. Thanks.

 

[cyriousn]

I found an old thread regarding a similar scenario, link below. It appears that GFCI breaker is not required if the manufacture does not require it. Does the DOD have it's own specification that needs to be met regarding this installation?

The power washer is a listed product and it has likely undergone some form of testing to prove the electrical is safely isolated. Would be worth asking if they do indeed confirm this through testing though. As long as the contractor wired this up per the installation manual it sounds like it would be a code installation without the GFCI breaker.

There are ground fault protection devices out there that could be explored where the trip threshold can be adjusted. I don't have much experience with them but I figured I'd throw it out there. You can always call this vendor and see if they have had other people buy them for this reason. Link also below.

Is GFCI required for a motorized wash basin?

I have a client that uses a Power Soak unit, which is large tub of water with a motor and heater for recirculating hot water for pot and pan washing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmgyuydN940 The client connects the motor/heater via a HD-Pro GFCI unit. They also bond the branch circuit EG to...

forums.mikeholt.com

NORTH SHORE SAFETY

We are leading in safety and reliable GFCI and ELCI products in the marketplace. Our products are customizable, long lasting and endurable even in extreme environmental condition.

nssltd.com

 

[Sillfmo]

Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate your help

 

[Sillfmo]

Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate your help. We have two entities here Public Works who own the building and us as owners of all equipment inside, a unique situation. PW accepted the install at handover after construction but wont get involved with the equipment side I will definitely explore the adjustable breaker option.

.

 

[cyriousn]

Not a problem, the the GFCI device in that link isn't quite a breaker, you would swap out the existing GFCI breaker in your panel for a normal 3 pole breaker and place the GFCI device in-line of the circuit. Something that I didn't mention before, but how far is the existing GFCI breaker from the sink? Some breaker manufacture's have a max distance between breaker and the load before there can be nuisance tripping from capacitive leakage.

 

[hbiss]

The electrical contractor who did the install is telling me it should be on a GFCI breaker.

Well, what NEC are you on and is the facility subject to the NEC? I ask because 5ma personal GFCI protection would be required under 422.5 of the 2020. I think that's what the contractor is talking about and further, the manufacturer had better get with it because the NEC supersedes anything the manufacturer may say. If their equipment won't work when supplied by a GFCI the equipment is improperly designed. They can't get away with saying not to use a GFCI.

-Hal

 

[hbiss]

I will definitely explore the adjustable breaker option.

Whatever those GFCIs are in that link are not for personal protection which is required for that sink!

Your only thinking at this point should be to determine if by Code you are required to have GFCI protection for that sink and if not, you are free to replace the GFCI breaker with a standard one.

Otherwise, if you are required to provide GFCI protection, contact the manufacturer and do whatever is necessary to make them rectify the situation. The unit is defective.

-Hal

 

[cyriousn]

Well, what NEC are you on and is the facility subject to the NEC? I ask because 5ma personal GFCI protection would be required under 422.5 of the 2020. I think that's what the contractor is talking about and further, the manufacturer had better get with it because the NEC supersedes anything the manufacturer may say. If their equipment won't work when supplied by a GFCI the equipment is improperly designed. They can't get away with saying not to use a GFCI.

-Hal

I checked 2017 and 2020 and if the unit is hardwired as OP stated, and not cord and plug, it' appears that 422.5 is not applicable. However just because it's not required by code doesn't mean it's not a good idea to offer the protection.

If personnel protection is the goal, then yes a Class A UL943 GFCI device would be required. The units that I linked are equipment leakage circuit interrupters. The link below has a good writeup on all of these devices.

The Differences between GFCI, IDCI, and GFPE

The most important thing to understand about ground fault protection devices is that one type is to protect personnel and the other is to protect electrical equipment, the latter having different trip levels for different types of protection. Three basic ground fault systems or leakage current...

www.ecmag.com

 

[kwired]

Is this some sort of self contained parts washer?

If so I don't think NEC requires GFCI unless it is cord and plug connected, then it might depending on further details.

 

[jap]

The manufacturer is not going to put in writing to take the GFI out.
The Electrician felt it needed GFI protection and is not going to take the GFI out.

If the Facility wants to take that risk and assume the liability, they'll have to take the GFI protection out themselves, or, get something different.

JAP>

 

[hbiss]

Is this some sort of self contained parts washer?

No. It's a "Jacuzzi" for pots and pans in a commercial kitchen. Probably gets them clean when the regular dish machine can't. It eliminates someone having to hand scrub and scrape them.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

No. It's a "Jacuzzi" for pots and pans in a commercial kitchen. Probably gets them clean when the regular dish machine can't. It eliminates someone having to hand scrub and scrape them.

-Hal

If so that is maybe crossing the line of whether or not it is a "dishwasher" and whether or not NEC edition that applies might require GFCI protection anyway.