I just had a topic closed because I asked a question about why we can't get electrical contractors to stop cutting each others throats when bidding on jobs. This guy said I was trying to start a union , that is not my intention just wandering how I can give a fair bid on a job when there is all the cut throat biding going on out there... You can't bid a job any more without a contractor looking at you like you are cazy... He will say JOE BLOW will do it for this... is anyone else in my shoes...It's time to set the prices so we can make money again get out of the 70's guys it's 2005 prices must go up we can't keep working for nothing...
Price wars
- Thread starter twodawggs
- Start date
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southernboys
Senior Member
Re: Price wars
hey bro im all for trying to set standard rated unfortunately we do have hacks out there who will always do a pisspoor job for a lower price the major problems to me include some happy homeowner who can go to the big blu or big orange buy whatever they need and wire a new addition to there house. now we all know this will result in a substandard job that will more then likely violate some code that the homeowner didnt know about so in my opinion we should avoid buying anything from these companies including tools ladders etc. but my other problem is you have the guy whos been in the field for enough years to get his license but has never been taught how to bid a job are there any websites those guys can go to get standard rates so he doesnt unintentionally undercut the other elecs in the area
hey bro im all for trying to set standard rated unfortunately we do have hacks out there who will always do a pisspoor job for a lower price the major problems to me include some happy homeowner who can go to the big blu or big orange buy whatever they need and wire a new addition to there house. now we all know this will result in a substandard job that will more then likely violate some code that the homeowner didnt know about so in my opinion we should avoid buying anything from these companies including tools ladders etc. but my other problem is you have the guy whos been in the field for enough years to get his license but has never been taught how to bid a job are there any websites those guys can go to get standard rates so he doesnt unintentionally undercut the other elecs in the area
Re: Price wars
Stick to your guns...when you say the price is $x.xx and the GC says well Joe can do it for $y.yy...you just say, "Let him do it".
Some of these GCs just want an EC (or any/all subs for that matter) they know they manipulate right from the start. First they get you get you lower to price, then they get you put in and maintain the temp. for free or next to nothing, then they refuse to pay full price on all the extras/changes that are required, etc...they just want some fool to play the game their way - where they (the GC) eat steak for lunch and the subs all eat PB&J.
...you don't think the union ECs do it too? Wake up and smell the insulation burning...LOL...it's all part of the business...
Stick to your guns...when you say the price is $x.xx and the GC says well Joe can do it for $y.yy...you just say, "Let him do it".
Some of these GCs just want an EC (or any/all subs for that matter) they know they manipulate right from the start. First they get you get you lower to price, then they get you put in and maintain the temp. for free or next to nothing, then they refuse to pay full price on all the extras/changes that are required, etc...they just want some fool to play the game their way - where they (the GC) eat steak for lunch and the subs all eat PB&J.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Price wars
I do work for a friend of mine (from church I might add) who builds custom homes. I do the work only because I truly believe he will not cheat me out of any money. However, there is a constant negotiation of time, price, cost of materials, etc. and my prices are always being compared with other contractors' prices. I'm a one man shop, I do all the work neatly and workmanlike while the ones I'm up against are multi-personnel shops who hire day workers to do?the installations.
Having said that I work out of one van, I own a small house and I pay my bills. On the other hand the GC has a rather large house, a Jaguar, a Ferrari, a Jeep, a Dodge 1500 RAM pick-up, a backhoe, 3 Harley Davidson collector edition bikes, a weekend house in Vermont and if that weren't enough a 40' sailboat up in CT on Long Island Sound.
In short, don't make this your main thrust of business. Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em !!!
[ April 24, 2005, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: goldstar ]
Twodawggs, as the saying goes "You have to pay for your education." At some point in time you'll come to realize that celtic's quote above is right on the money. GC's will not allow you to make any money off their backs. If you decide to do any work with GC's it should only be "keep busy" type of work because I can assure you that you will not get rich working for them.
I do work for a friend of mine (from church I might add) who builds custom homes. I do the work only because I truly believe he will not cheat me out of any money. However, there is a constant negotiation of time, price, cost of materials, etc. and my prices are always being compared with other contractors' prices. I'm a one man shop, I do all the work neatly and workmanlike while the ones I'm up against are multi-personnel shops who hire day workers to do?the installations.
Having said that I work out of one van, I own a small house and I pay my bills. On the other hand the GC has a rather large house, a Jaguar, a Ferrari, a Jeep, a Dodge 1500 RAM pick-up, a backhoe, 3 Harley Davidson collector edition bikes, a weekend house in Vermont and if that weren't enough a 40' sailboat up in CT on Long Island Sound.
In short, don't make this your main thrust of business. Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em !!!
[ April 24, 2005, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: goldstar ]
Re: Price wars
Thanks for the responses but we still haven't got an answer to our problem yet ... I guess the States and insurance companies need to step in and stop home owners from doing there own electrical work. The electrical trade needs to start limiting access to electrical supplies like the HVAC guys do. In my home town you can not purchase HVAC equipment or supplies without a license makes sense to me. I have no problem with some one trying to make a living but the problem I have is with JOE BLOW doing #$#%#$ work and causing grief for all the rest of us who are trying to do a good job at a fair price.. We need to set a standard base line price and work up from there depending on the job.... We got to stop all the cut throat pricing going on. I work for my money as I know most of you guys do to ... So let's keep real ....
Thanks for the responses but we still haven't got an answer to our problem yet ... I guess the States and insurance companies need to step in and stop home owners from doing there own electrical work. The electrical trade needs to start limiting access to electrical supplies like the HVAC guys do. In my home town you can not purchase HVAC equipment or supplies without a license makes sense to me. I have no problem with some one trying to make a living but the problem I have is with JOE BLOW doing #$#%#$ work and causing grief for all the rest of us who are trying to do a good job at a fair price.. We need to set a standard base line price and work up from there depending on the job.... We got to stop all the cut throat pricing going on. I work for my money as I know most of you guys do to ... So let's keep real ....
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Price wars
Basically, you can not stop anyone from building whatever they want and it doesn't have to meet any codes at all. I don't think you will be able to take that independence away from people.
Most states permit Joe Homeowner to do their own work. Indiana has a statute that is known as the "Log Cabin Law" that permits any homeowner to do anything they want and can not force an inspection. In fact, the homeowner can refuse to permit an inspector on their property.
Basically, you can not stop anyone from building whatever they want and it doesn't have to meet any codes at all. I don't think you will be able to take that independence away from people.
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Price wars
I don't think the problem is that homeowners are allowed to do their own work. I think the problem is that homeowners and hacks are doing work that isn't being inspected and held to the same standards we have to meet.
Sure, preventing non-licensed people from being able to buy switches and wire would make our services more in demand, thus allowing us to make more money, but suppose other trades and industries decided to do something similar. Suppose only licensed mechanics could purchase auto supplies, so you'd have to go to a repair shop to get your oil changed. I've heard there are places in the US where there's a law against people pumping their own gas.
Perhaps the answer is to require homeowners to show a valid permit when purchasing electrical supplies. I know it wouldn't put an end to the bad work being done out there, but it might reduce it somewhat. Where I live, a homeowner can do the same work on his own property that a contractor can, but the homeowner must meet the same codes the contractor has to. The "Log Cabin Law" that Charlie mentioned has a glaring flaw: It makes it very easy for the housing stock to become run down, which will almost certainly result in people wanting to live elsewhere, which reduces the tax base. I know I'd seriously think of living elsewhere if I were looking at buying a house, but every one I looked at was loaded with code violations.
[ April 24, 2005, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
I don't think the problem is that homeowners are allowed to do their own work. I think the problem is that homeowners and hacks are doing work that isn't being inspected and held to the same standards we have to meet.
Sure, preventing non-licensed people from being able to buy switches and wire would make our services more in demand, thus allowing us to make more money, but suppose other trades and industries decided to do something similar. Suppose only licensed mechanics could purchase auto supplies, so you'd have to go to a repair shop to get your oil changed. I've heard there are places in the US where there's a law against people pumping their own gas.
Perhaps the answer is to require homeowners to show a valid permit when purchasing electrical supplies. I know it wouldn't put an end to the bad work being done out there, but it might reduce it somewhat. Where I live, a homeowner can do the same work on his own property that a contractor can, but the homeowner must meet the same codes the contractor has to. The "Log Cabin Law" that Charlie mentioned has a glaring flaw: It makes it very easy for the housing stock to become run down, which will almost certainly result in people wanting to live elsewhere, which reduces the tax base. I know I'd seriously think of living elsewhere if I were looking at buying a house, but every one I looked at was loaded with code violations.
[ April 24, 2005, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Price wars
Permits are a great start to solving problems.I have often questioned a method a boss wanted me to use.When you said something like that won't pass code you get answer of "we are not pulling a permit".Some how some think that changes everything.Thankfully i have found a company that believes in doing things right.They need to go after the non licensed or un permitted jobs.
Permits are a great start to solving problems.I have often questioned a method a boss wanted me to use.When you said something like that won't pass code you get answer of "we are not pulling a permit".Some how some think that changes everything.Thankfully i have found a company that believes in doing things right.They need to go after the non licensed or un permitted jobs.
highkvoltage
Senior Member
Re: Price wars
Price fixing is against the law for one thing. If the EC's in your area got together whether union and nonunion and agreed to set prices to help pad their pockets you all would be in jail especially if you were bidding on public money projects. Some EC's tried that around here and two of them went to jail. (They were huge EC's bidding on multi million dollar projects) Now if you want to have a friendly conversation about ways on how to improve your bottom line without crossing that fine line in the anti trust laws (I think the statues they were prosecuted under) well then that's a different story just don't keep notes on what you all discussed.
[ April 24, 2005, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: highkvoltage ]
Price fixing is against the law for one thing. If the EC's in your area got together whether union and nonunion and agreed to set prices to help pad their pockets you all would be in jail especially if you were bidding on public money projects. Some EC's tried that around here and two of them went to jail. (They were huge EC's bidding on multi million dollar projects) Now if you want to have a friendly conversation about ways on how to improve your bottom line without crossing that fine line in the anti trust laws (I think the statues they were prosecuted under) well then that's a different story just don't keep notes on what you all discussed.
[ April 24, 2005, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: highkvoltage ]
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