Prints

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jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Who the heck is drawing prints nowadays? I don't expect perfection, not capable of it myself. But some things are stupid on steroids. I had this on a recent job.

We had a simple job with a club room being built in a retirement home. A few lights, a few counter receptacles and a panel. Panel was spec'd on a closet wall where it could not be installed. Had a 45 degree angle beam on the wall and HVAC equipment right up against it. No problem, I found another spot in the closet. Next, the prints called for several general use receptacles on the counter and ones labeled for microwave and coffee maker. Just before inspection, owner came in and aksed if any of the counter recepts were 240 volt, that we neede that for the coffee maker. Also said microwave was going under counter, where was the recept for it? I showed him what prints had spec'd. Also said they wanted over cabinet and undercabinet lights. None of this was on prints or notes. GC is still negotiating with customer on change orders.

From now on, I will drive someone insane with RFI's. Voltage of coffee pots, exact setup of microwave, lights here, lights there? I know many problems are unavoidable but simple stuff like that would have been easy to think ahead on. j
 
mgookin said:
Good luck with that panel in the closet.

Are those sealed plans?
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Sealed plans? Not familiar with that. Panel in the closet was OK. It passed inspection. Utility closet with just enough space putting it where I did.
 
jmellc said:
Sealed plans? Not familiar with that. Panel in the closet was OK. It passed inspection. Utility closet with just enough space putting it where I did.
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Sealed plans are plans with an electrical inspector or engineered stamp on them saying they are acceptable to code, they also have to be stamped by the township in which you are working (if required). Its not your responsibility to suggest thing, thats the architects job unless its a design build. As long as you covered whats on the prints, your in the clear. If they wanted certain things that they don't have maybe they added them after the prints were done or the architect missed them. Not your fault
 
jmellc said:
Sealed plans? Not familiar with that. ...
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Usually means stamped by engineer of record (EOR), and likely approved for construction through plan review. Normally to make alterations requires the EOR to change plans, note revisions, and plan review to approve for construction again.
 
sounds like the engineer's stamp smeared on the paper bag :)
 
No, I don't recall that these plans were sealed.

I know I did what I was supposed to but in a similar situation, I will RFI all these things so change orders can be worked into the original work. More profitable for us to do them up front than have to come back after the fact. The job is just far enough away that we are better off minimizing extra trips. In this case too, harder work later, as some of the walls got tiled, making cutins much harder. Up front, I could cut access holes in drywall and rough patch them, knowing they would be tiled over.
 
For small projects, there isn't enough fee from the owner to coordinate among trades and even when that happens, the changes toward the end are tough to re-coordinate. That's if the owners needs you found out at the site had even been communicated to the engineer.
 
I love it when the job doesn't match the plans and I get the "well the owner wanted...." story. Ok how many people should have looked at and approved those plans long before they were plan checked by me. I'm the last person who should see those plans and anything you wanted should have been on them long before they got to me.

What's been happening a lot lately is that the jobs are being bid and started off of a "construction set" of plans and not the approved set. We have guy's picking up plans and permits and then having the gall to ask for a rough inspection the next day. Now how would they know what to put in if they didn't have an approved set of plans yet?
 
cowboyjwc said:
I love it when the job doesn't match the plans and I get the "well the owner wanted...." story. Ok how many people should have looked at and approved those plans long before they were plan checked by me. I'm the last person who should see those plans and anything you wanted should have been on them long before they got to me.

What's been happening a lot lately is that the jobs are being bid and started off of a "construction set" of plans and not the approved set. We have guy's picking up plans and permits and then having the gall to ask for a rough inspection the next day. Now how would they know what to put in if they didn't have an approved set of plans yet?
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I guess it is just how the terms are used, but a "Construction Set" often comes after a "permit set" or "approved set".
 
Things are a lot less rigid in my area.

I rarely if ever see an inspector checking the prints to see if they match what we did. They leave that to the designers and enginneers.
 
iwire said:
Things are a lot less rigid in my area.

I rarely if ever see an inspector checking the prints to see if they match what we did. They leave that to the designers and enginneers.
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We have a lot of energy requirements that we have to meet, that are required by the state, so things like changing the type of lights or how many is not allowed without plan approval. I used to not care where you put your receptacles, but now for every receptacle you have you have to have a controlled receptacle within 6' of it. Lot's of things are different in CA if you haven't noticed.:happyyes:
 
ron said:
For small projects, there isn't enough fee from the owner to coordinate among trades and even when that happens, the changes toward the end are tough to re-coordinate. That's if the owners needs you found out at the site had even been communicated to the engineer.
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Maybe old fashioned logic and common sense have become extinct. In my mind, all someone had to do was select the equipment to be used and include it on the prints or notes. Just takes a small dose of thinking ahead.
 
pmic28 said:
Sealed plans are plans with an electrical inspector or engineered stamp on them saying they are acceptable to code, they also have to be stamped by the township in which you are working (if required). Its not your responsibility to suggest thing, thats the architects job unless its a design build. As long as you covered whats on the prints, your in the clear. If they wanted certain things that they don't have maybe they added them after the prints were done or the architect missed them. Not your fault
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What you typed is great on paper, but respectfully that is all. I am of the belief that generally no one wins in a change order. You can take the position that what is on the plans is your only responsibility, but that leads to becoming a low bid only contractor with no relationships. I try to operate under the principle that everything I can catch early makes everything I do later on go smoothly. Your GC and customer only remember the problems at the end of the job, not what a pain you were with questions early. In regards to the OP, it sounds like he just had a bad situation. It is just as likely that the owner never discussed his needs, especially the coffee pot with the designer. Experience though, has taught me to be very diligent in kitchen/break areas regarding all receptacles as there are often, garbage disposals with switches not shown, microwave cubby's under counter refrigerators, sinks not in the location envisioned by the original design.
 
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