prints

[railreferman]

Hey people I'am wondering were a guy can find how to read and draw schematics? any help would be great. just want to get better at my job.

 

[petersonra]

Hey people I'am wondering were a guy can find how to read and draw schematics? any help would be great. just want to get better at my job.

One of my pet peeves. It is not common to find an electrician that understands electrical schematics, at least in my experience. Mostly they wire point to point or from memory. It seems to be something skipped in the apprentice programs.

 

[bphgravity]

Several of the guys in my office used this book from the IAEI and found to be beneficial. Not exactly what you are looking for, but may be of some help to you:

http://www.iaei.org/products/books_02planstudyguide.htm

 

[roger]

Bob, I think you using the word electrician loosely, what you are referring to IMO are not electricians but simply installers.

Railreferman, Click Here for a plethora of training material. You should probably check out the books on circuitry and motor controls for a starting point.

There are a good number of books HERE too.

Roger

 

[petersonra]

Bob, I think you using the word electrician loosely, what you are referring to IMO are not electricians but simply installers.
Roger

Actually, for getting people to actually follow schematics I seem to have better luck with people you denigrate as "simply installers".

There are not all that many electricians that have a lot of experience wiring to a schematic.

If you don't believe this, try this thought experiment. Put a couple JM electricians to work wiring up a control panel according to a set of drawings next to a couple of "simply installers" working on an identical panel and see who finishes first and who has the fewest mistakes.

Having seen essentially this done many times over the years, I would not bet on the electricians.

Now for running pipe and wire, the "real" electricians will run rings around the other guys, but for actually getting it wired according to the drawings, it is not so simple. I often end up out in the field debugging these things after they have been wired up. Thats why I avoid field wiring as much as possible, and when I have to have field wiring, I make it as simple as possible, or it will for sure get screwed up.

 

[roger]

Bob, answer a few questions for me please.

#1 Where are you located?
#2 Does the title Control Engineer carry a seal with the title?
#3 If you avoid field wiring as much as possible, how are you such an expert on field electricians verses installers?

As far as you injecting the term "denigrate" into my distinction between an electrician and an installer, you can hop down off your pedestal and until you carry some classification as an electrician, you can keep your misinterpretations to yourself.

Being in management I have to see and recognize the difference between Electricians and Installers and use both to the best of their abilities, this does not mean I am belittling what I call installers, they are many times the better pipe runners, wire pullers, cable tray installers, riggers etc..., but could not trouble shoot a PLC, MCC, conveyer, etc...

By your own admission in your post above, the ones that you are describing as doing your work for you the way you want it done are not electricians.

It seems as though you want someone that has no knowledge of electricity (at least at the electrician level) just following your finger, so with that being the case why don't you just do it yourself, you could even charge electrician fees.


Roger

 

[brian john]

For me, I obtained drawings for some ATS switches and studied them, I knew how an ATS worked, so I tried to figure out the operation from following the drawings. Practice and hands on IMO are the best trainers, that and being thrown into the fire, emergency call at 2:00 AM when you can't call anyone for help.

There are different skill levels when reading drawings. We have a guy in our office that can take a 100 page set of drawings for a parallel gear look at the gear see what relay is not operational, leaf through the drawings, flip a page or 30 and then know the issue. Me it might take me 3 or 4 hours to do the same thing.

 

[George Stolz]

My technique is standing and staring at the plans. I try to do it only when necessary, so it's not staring at the plans for it's own sake.

For a jumpstart, I would ask to have a set of plans to look at during off time, so you don't interfere with productivity to improve yourself. I do think it's a critical skill to learn, but the business makes money by what you accomplish, not by what you know, IMO.

Edit to add: Asking for explanations as to how the leader came to a conclusion by looking at the plans is also a good way to learn. Much of what we need to know is not seen on the electrical plans, but by comparing them to the architecturals and details as well. Hopefully, you have a good boss that doesn't mind answering pertinent questions.

 

[petersonra]

I have been doing this for 25+ years. I have had hundreds (or probably thousands) of my designs installed over the years. The best installs seem to be from guys who are not "real" electricians. When union or other regulations require the use of "real" electricians, I have to go to extra lengths to reduce the need to wire to schematics and simplify the field work. Mostly I rely on point to point terminal strip drawings. It is easy to follow them, and no understanding of schematics is required. It takes more time up front, but it reduces issues in the field.

When I know a competent installer will be there, I do not have to build in the time up front to do any special drawings because these guys understand schematics.

It is just that simple.

If you want, I can post dozens of horror stories that have happened using "real" electricians for installation work.

I have also been pleasantly surprised from time to time. There are a few electrical contractors out there that have people who specialize in installing equipment and they seem to be darn good at it. But taking a guy who spent the last 20 years running pipe and wire on construction jobs and asking him to do machine installations is just asking for trouble.

 

[roger]

Bob, you didn't answer my questions.

But taking a guy who spent the last 20 years running pipe and wire on construction jobs and asking him to do machine installations is just asking for trouble.

Hmmm, seems as though you are reiterating what I said.


Roger

 

[brian john]

Like many aspects of our trade, this is getting more specialized. At one time it seemed we were electricians.

Now many electricians are specialized, fire alarm techs, control techs, PLC techs, power house electricians, residential, commercial, service, power quality, electrical testers, and some SLACKERS. I deal with a few electricians and all they have ever wired is pumping stations and sewage treatment plants, rigid specialists.

 

[petersonra]

Bob, answer a few questions for me please.

#1 Where are you located?
#2 Does the title Control Engineer carry a seal with the title?
#3 If you avoid field wiring as much as possible, how are you such an expert on field electricians verses installers?
er

1. I am in Illinois, but very little of the equipment I work on is here. It is scattered all over the place.

2. No seal. Does that matter at all?

3. I have learned the hard way. That is why I avoid field wiring. It is pretty much the way every OEM I have worked with feels too. They all take about the same approach. It is not so much the cost as the time. The EC ends up fixing things right, and mostly at their expense, but it takes time out of the schedule to do so. And none of these things has enough calender days built into it to begin with.

 

[roger]

Bob, thanks for the reply.

Roger