Privatizing inspectors

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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
The best, most knowledgeable electrical inspector I have ever met will lose his position in 7 days.

The City of Muskegon, Michigan, is 'privatizing' it's electrical inspections. The City of Norton Shores is going to do so, too.

How does that work? How can a private company enforce state law?

I don't have a good feeling about this at all.........

The Safe Built contract calls for the company to collect city building and inspection fees, keeping 80 percent and providing the city the remaining 20 percent.

http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/index.ssf/2012/09/city_of_muskegon_moves_to_priv.html
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
One of our local jurisdictions is staffed by a private company. Others are talking about contracting out the inspection department. It seems to be cheaper for the city.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
It's cheaper for the jurisdictions because they don't have to pay any benefits.

Some of these companies are just made up of laid off inspectors so you still get a pretty quality inspection. Some others I've heard about get paid by the inspection so they tend to leave a correction notice on almost every job.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
You want to find the right answers .... you need to start with the right questions.

I have no idea how the city you mention does things, but we can look to countless examples where private, free markets greatly outperform government bureaucracies.

I can tell you that Missouri has seen real improvements since they 'privatised' the Dept. of Motor Vehicles.

Even within our own industry: I've done countless service changes that were driven by the requirements of private insurance companies, but only two that were the result of city action.

Introducing market forces into an issue does a fine job of eliminating the fraud, graft, corruption, malfeasance, and bureaucratic 'drag' that is so much a part of governmental involvement. Look to the World Trade Center reconstruction: the original was built in far less time than this current, on-going effort. The difference? The involvement of many more 'committees.'

You described someone as 'the best.' How, absent competition in a free market and definite standards does one determine 'best?' I mean, it's fairly easy to make the case that Michael Jordan was 'the best,' but agianst what yardstick do you measure an inspector?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I think it can make a big difference how this private service is arranged, regulated, or whatever.

If you are going to adopt the NEC as the law, that is one thing. I guess you can say it is the law and never inspect anything. There will be many installations that do not comply with NEC, and everyone involved - especially those that don't know NEC will be happy. Then comes a serious injury or death. Now the attorneys representing the victim, find and prove the law was broken and that guy that did not know code is not so happy anymore, and the victim can not have whatever happened undone.

If you decide you are going to inspect for compliance with the law (which is the NEC) there are many ways to go about it. Each and every one of them has it's pro's and con's. There are government run jurisdictions that are about as fair to all as can ever be expected, and there are some where there is little oversight and the inspectors can practically do whatever they want - this seems to happen more in smaller city or county jurisdictions where there is no one else qualified to know much about actual codes and installations and the only hired inspector gets a "god complex".

The only real people that keep things in check are the contractors that are being inspected. If they are not happy with the overall results they need to speak up to the appropriate governing body, whether or not the inspectors are public or private employees they are still supposed to be governed by the laws.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Don't think that the government crap stops simply because you went private, you have all of the same requirements to follow, just not being enforced by employees of the jurisdiction.

Here's what you have to remember about private inspectors. They usually just don't care, here 6 of our 8 inpsectors live in town and the other two have lived here. It's our town we care about what happens here, we're protecting our family and friends. When you come here you wil build it like you were building it for your mom. We're still fair and don't ask for any more than the code, but you will follow the code.:happyyes:
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
You described someone as 'the best.' How, absent competition in a free market and definite standards does one determine 'best?' I mean, it's fairly easy to make the case that Michael Jordan was 'the best,' but agianst what yardstick do you measure an inspector?

The best I know, to be accurate.

Of all the inspectors I have worked with, and that is more than a handful, this particular one was the most thorough, knowledgeable and approachable of them all.

I met him in 1994, two years before I entered the IBEW apprenticeship in order to become a real electrician. For those five years he answered and explained many questions about the NEC to me that were sometimes hard to grasp. His help was one thing that garnered me my high scores there.

He always has the book ready and is ready to explain things. He can be called by anyone to answer questions and they will get an accurate answer.

I looked forward to every inspection I ever had with him. If he caught something, and he did, many times, I was more than happy to comply. I knew there would be no argument I could win with him. He is a walking code book and also is a collector of code books.

His mission was to ensure, as he was paid to do, the safety of the citizens of the city he served. He was never out to shut anyone down and I never found him to be unreasonable.

Maybe not the best ever, anywhere.....but yes, the best I know, no question about that.

Edit to add: He does live in the city he is responsible for.
 
Last edited:

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
You want to find the right answers .... you need to start with the right questions.

I have no idea how the city you mention does things, but we can look to countless examples where private, free markets greatly outperform government bureaucracies.

I can tell you that Missouri has seen real improvements since they 'privatised' the Dept. of Motor Vehicles.
DMV services are far from that of a building inspector. Many of such a dept. services is processing paperwork. Not the same with a enforcement agency. Would you want your town policed by a Rental agencey.

Even within our own industry: I've done countless service changes that were driven by the requirements of private insurance companies, but only two that were the result of city action. So what. The insurance co. can demand what they want if you want them to insure your building. The City must not overstep their authority.

Introducing market forces into an issue does a fine job of eliminating the fraud, graft, corruption, malfeasance, and bureaucratic 'drag' that is so much a part of governmental involvement. Look to the World Trade Center reconstruction: the original was built in far less time than this current, on-going effort. The difference? The involvement of many more 'committees.'

Really , I think it can create more, especially if it is job driven. The more inspections the more work! Cities don't work that way.

You described someone as 'the best.' How, absent competition in a free market and definite standards does one determine 'best?' I mean, it's fairly easy to make the case that Michael Jordan was 'the best,' but agianst what yardstick do you measure an inspector?

Don't think that the government crap stops simply because you went private, you have all of the same requirements to follow, just not being enforced by employees of the jurisdiction.

I would agree.

Here's what you have to remember about private inspectors. They usually just don't care, here 6 of our 8 inpsectors live in town and the other two have lived here. It's our town we care about what happens here, we're protecting our family and friends. When you come here you wil build it like you were building it for your mom. We're still fair and don't ask for any more than the code, but you will follow the code.:happyyes:


The only thing I would say is beneficial about private inspection is that i would hope the inspector does not have immunity from poor inspections like a city employee would have.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The only thing I would say is beneficial about private inspection is that i would hope the inspector does not have immunity from poor inspections like a city employee would have.

Neither is immune to poor inspections, but the process to make things change is not always that easy or quickly resolved and you need to decide when to stand you ground if you think something is wrong and when to just give in because it is easier and maybe not so much of a safety threat.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Neither is immune to poor inspections, but the process to make things change is not always that easy or quickly resolved and you need to decide when to stand you ground if you think something is wrong and when to just give in because it is easier and maybe not so much of a safety threat.

I don't think you grasped my intent of immunity. Generally city employees are not prosecuted for making a mistake. Meaning a private citizen cannot sue. Generally , unless the private company has special language in it's contract it can be sued for any actions or inactions.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I don't think you grasped my intent of immunity. Generally city employees are not prosecuted for making a mistake. Meaning a private citizen cannot sue. Generally , unless the private company has special language in it's contract it can be sued for any actions or inactions.

No I did not necessarily think about what you said here, but now that you bring that up, city employees may not be prosecuted (as well as the employee of a private contractor) with occasions where there could be exceptions but that would need to be gross negligence or even criminal intent, but I see no reason why the employer can not be called into a lawsuit whether it is a government organization or a private organization. Local governments are in lawsuits all the time, State and Federal not so much but it does happen there also.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
No I did not necessarily think about what you said here, but now that you bring that up, city employees may not be prosecuted (as well as the employee of a private contractor) with occasions where there could be exceptions but that would need to be gross negligence or even criminal intent, but I see no reason why the employer can not be called into a lawsuit whether it is a government organization or a private organization. Local governments are in lawsuits all the time, State and Federal not so much but it does happen there also.

We go to court all the time, well not all the time, but often enough that you know you're not exempt from prosecution. When you go to court, you better have your ducks in a row and know the right answers.

Now they are suing the city and not me personally and they really can't go after me personally unless there is gross neglect or graft or something along those lines where I willfully violate the law.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
We go to court all the time, well not all the time, but often enough that you know you're not exempt from prosecution. When you go to court, you better have your ducks in a row and know the right answers.

Now they are suing the city and not me personally and they really can't go after me personally unless there is gross neglect or graft or something along those lines where I willfully violate the law.

And your employer (the AHJ) has probably had enough experiences and read about other cases to know what policies and practices they need to make standard. Your employer probably does not lose many of those cases unless there was a mistake made by someone, but usually those cases get resolved before they go to court.

The people have the right to challenge when they feel their rights have been violated. They could go to court and lose based on the fact that no law was broken, but they also have the right to challenge the laws but to do that should (and does) involve a separate case as you are possibly challenging that the law possibly violates the constitution, or maybe instead of going to court you are just introducing legislation to the governing body to change a law.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Yes anyone can sue, however a town or city has a taxpayer funded legal representation. A contracted company does not. If the private inspector is licensed he could face issues with a licensing entity. As a general rule city employees are immune. They probably get a gold star in their file.:lol:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yes anyone can sue, however a town or city has a taxpayer funded legal representation. A contracted company does not. If the private inspector is licensed he could face issues with a licensing entity. As a general rule city employees are immune. They probably get a gold star in their file.:lol:

As a general rule any employee is immune to liability as a result of their employment outside of severe gross negligence or criminal intent, it it the employer that is being sued. City employees are just that - employees, the city is the employer. The city does have taxpayer funded legal representation, so what. They are basically not much different than a large company, the more business you are involved in the more your legal risk is, the more you need an attorney on staff or on call, just so happens the city hires or even publicly elects one as a permanent position, but is no different than a private company having their own regular attorney in a way.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If a private company is contracted to do inspections by a city, it is possible the city may back them up legally over code and enforcement issues anyway.

Now if the contracted company sends an employee to a place to inspect and he damages something while there that may have to come from the contractors general liability.
 
http://www.inspectionbureau.com/whatis_pastandpres.htm

We have to deal with these people whenever we install electric signs in Cincinnati and the surrounding area. To this day we have yet to pass an inspection on the first visit. They get paid per inspection.

The latest incident with them was a couple weeks ago. We installed four electric signs, so we got four permits. Of course we were wrong. :slaphead: They used the literal UL definition of what constitutes a sign (a power supply and the letters that go with that supply is a "sign") and we went from four permits to thirteen permits so more money for them. :happysad:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
http://www.inspectionbureau.com/whatis_pastandpres.htm

We have to deal with these people whenever we install electric signs in Cincinnati and the surrounding area. To this day we have yet to pass an inspection on the first visit. They get paid per inspection.

The latest incident with them was a couple weeks ago. We installed four electric signs, so we got four permits. Of course we were wrong. :slaphead: They used the literal UL definition of what constitutes a sign (a power supply and the letters that go with that supply is a "sign") and we went from four permits to thirteen permits so more money for them. :happysad:

Is the private company essentially running the whole show or just doing inspections and other things incidental to inspections?

Shouldn't the city (or whoever the governing agency is) be the one issuing permits?

Does this company have to submit a bid periodically to retain their contract with the city, and the bid is open to other bidders? Or are they just in this position until enough people have a problem with the situation and they get legal action or legislation involved to change something?
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
The State of TN (excluding municipalities that claim exemption) has used contract inspectors for years, perhaps since the inception.
 
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