Professional drawings for service upgrade?

[gulf0927]

Upgrading a customer's home in PA from 200 to 400A. They will be getting electric vehicles in the future, also a hot tub, and it's close to 4,000 sq. feet to begin with, not to mention multiple outbuildings. Utility approved it and everything was moving ahead.

But the AHJ now wants two sets of drawings for the upgrade sealed and signed by a design professional on top of everything else. Never encountered one this strict before, they even made me add them as additional insured on my policy, also a first. I've done hundreds of upgrades with permits and only ever needed to submit load calculations TO THE UTILITY a handful of times.

Is this common? It's not wven near a city, actually quite out in the woods. At what point is this just snooping on a customer's property? What's the average cost of electrical drawings for something lile this?

 

[hillbilly1]

Our AHJ only wants drawings for commercial and industrial. Residential is the Wild Wild West! The AHJ is probably just covering his butt. That’s why ours wants it on commercial and industrial.

 

[petersonra]

The AHJ can only insist on what the rules require. is this an inspector requiring this? He can't make up rules. He has no authority to do so. Only the actual AHJ. If it is a requirement, it will be in the rules.

 

[gulf0927]

The AHJ can only insist on what the rules require. is this an inspector requiring this? He can't make up rules. He has no authority to do so. Only the actual AHJ. If it is a requirement, it will be in the rules.

It is the township, yes. But it seems odd that they can even require that. If the customer wants to sit around all day and watch 400 amps come into his home for no reason, that's between him and the utility. They questioned whether it would be for commercial use, but I assured them it's not. I don't know how drawings will change that. The utility engineer approved it, and an inspector will verify it's up to code once I'm done. I just don't know how the AHJ can require this for residential.

 

[hillbilly1]

A lot of underground green houses in your area? LOL!

 

[gulf0927]

A lot of underground green houses in your area? LOL!

Probably

 

[petersonra]

Who is the actual AHJ? It would be unusual for it to be a township. Not saying it can't be, but it would not be real common.

Who decides the rules is what I am asking? State? County?

 

[jaggedben]

How many times did you ask them? Are you sure it isn't a newbie permit tech making a mistake?

I mean, I would also just do a load calc and put my name ans signature on it. I can call myself a 'design professional' for that. They didn't ask for an 'engineer', did they? I would ignore the word 'sealed' until push comes to shove.

In California we have a law that contractors can do designs for work they are qualified to contract for. I've had to point that out to an AHJ once or twice. Maybe you can find similar verbiage somewhere in your state law.

 

[tom baker]

The AHJ can only insist on what the rules require. is this an inspector requiring this? He can't make up rules. He has no authority to do so. Only the actual AHJ. If it is a requirement, it will be in the rules.

Agree is this a rule or vest pocket requirement?

 

[gulf0927]

This is the wording in the email.


"Please describe in detail why a residential pole barn will require a 400-amp service upgrade. The reason for this is that the property is located in a Residential Conservation Area, where commercial businesses are not permitted

(No Plans were submitted) Two sets of plans\specifications compliant with requirements of 2015 ICC, 2009 ANSI A117.1, and 2014 NEC. Plans must include structural, electrical, mechanical, fire protection, and plumbing details. Each page must be prepared, sealed and signed by a registered design professional."

So yeah, I sent one back assuring him this is not commercial, and the customer just wants more power for the future. He doesn't seem like a newbie, but who knows. I did offer to do a basic drawing for him myself, not sure how a load calculation would do any good, but I could just add in how much chargers and hot tubs draw. If all he wants is assurance that it's not going to be used for commercial I get that, but other than that I'm not quite sure what he's looking for.

 

[gulf0927]

I only mentioned a pole barn in passing on the permit, it's one of several buildings on the property.

 

[Fred B]

Perhaps it's the suggestion

 

[Fred B]

Perhaps it was the suggestion of EV chargers that set the AHJ off. Got one county AHJ here that insists on stamped electrical prints for EV chargers. He even went so far to state that if he had it his way they wouldn't even allow any EVs in his county.
Problem is can't get electrical prints here for residential, did find one way out of the area that might have been willing, but he normally only does commercial design, and was going to charge in excess of $5000 for one stamped print.

Not sure of PA but NY has an exclusion that it does not require electrical design prints for 1 and 2 family dwellings, But it didn't stop this AHJ.

 

[gulf0927]

I don't mind signing off on my own drawings, but I don't even know what portion of the buidling he wants included. Just the side of the house where the service comes in?? Calling him today to make sense of it.

 

[Fred B]

I don't mind signing off on my own drawings, but I don't even know what portion of the buidling he wants included. Just the side of the house where the service comes in?? Calling him today to make sense of it.

Don't know your background but usually the requirement to "sign off" is for an engineer that has a seal for stamped drawing.

 

[jaggedben]

...
(No Plans were submitted) Two sets of plans\specifications compliant with requirements of 2015 ICC, 2009 ANSI A117.1, and 2014 NEC. Plans must include structural, electrical, mechanical, fire protection, and plumbing details. Each page must be prepared, sealed and signed by a registered design professional."
...

This is boiler plate and goes along with the assertion that you are building some sort of new, probably commercial facility. (I don't know about PA but around here no seal would be required for residential but would be required for commercial.) Obviously an electrical service upgrade by itself does not involve structural, mechanical, fire protection, or (especially ) plumbing. So I would write a polite response asssuring him that it is only an electrical upgrade and providing a simple line diagram.

The reason I suggest showing a load calc with future load is to prove that the upgrade is necessary for the legit residential load you mentioned in your OP, since this AHJ obviously needs educating that a house could need 400A. Of course, you may also find that the upgrade isn't actually necessary, (which I understand might be better for the client than for you, but still).

 

[LarryFine]

Invite him to see the property for himself.

Added: Also show him the load calculation.

 

[electrofelon]

This drives me crazy, someone from the government saying I must explain why I want a certain type of size of electrical service. Maybe I want a 2000A 277/480 service just so I can brag to my forum friends about it!

Technically it would come down to what their laws are. It should be written and codified in what cases plans and engineering are required. So if you want to do some digging..... Also you could see if they define what "registered design professional" means.

 

[Eddie702]

In most states if you are the installer, electrical, hvac, plumbing etc and are properly licensed and are the installer you are allowed to design your own work.

You can't for instance design something for another contractor.

 

[Joe.B]

Maybe what they're really looking for is a site plan, not construction plans. They probably want a piece of paper they can file away that shows what this new service upgrade will serve. Print out a property report, or even a google maps image, highlight and label each building, and show the location of the main and any subs. Attach a written scope of work (or even your contract) and your load calcs and submit. Oh, and don't forget a north arrow or they might get lost.