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Programming Software Cost !!!

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TwoBlocked

TwoBlocked

Senior Member
Location
Bradford County, PA
Occupation
Industrial Electrician
Yeah, I know you get what you pay for, and a workman is worth their wages. But the price of programming software seems like a killer when you want to get into PLC work. The manufacturers can't sell the equipment without there being software to program it, so why not distribute the cost of the programming software into the cost of the equipment, and make the software cheap or free? Then there is the whole subscription thing. After paying perhaps thousands, you are only leasing it, not owning it.

I feel like I am missing a basic concept. It's not like when you buy a computer and it comes with an operating system. THAT makes sense. Buying a PLC and then having to spend thousands more to program it doesn't, at least to me.
 
ptonsparky

ptonsparky

Tom
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
TwoBlocked said:
Yeah, I know you get what you pay for, and a workman is worth their wages. But the price of programming software seems like a killer when you want to get into PLC work. The manufacturers can't sell the equipment without there being software to program it, so why not distribute the cost of the programming software into the cost of the equipment, and make the software cheap or free? Then there is the whole subscription thing. After paying perhaps thousands, you are only leasing it, not owning it.

I feel like I am missing a basic concept. It's not like when you buy a computer and it comes with an operating system. THAT makes sense. Buying a PLC and then having to spend thousands more to program it doesn't, at least to me.
Click to expand...
My small projects were just that, small. I used AB because that was all that was available in this area at the time. I could work the support expense into overhead, until I couldn't. (That and area support sent me to an obscenely priced replacement part.)

While it's comparing apples to oranges, there are alternatives that come with software and tons of online videos to get you started. Very basic PLC less than $200. You could spend $1000 and have very decent PC, analog I/O, and HMI with email, text messaging and data storage, etc.

Will it apply directly to what's being used at your place of employment, No. It will get you started on understanding some of the concepts.
 
TwoBlocked

TwoBlocked

Senior Member
Location
Bradford County, PA
Occupation
Industrial Electrician
Thanks, I am fairly proficient with Modicon. There is a potential municipal customer with AB products. Since we are local, I'd like to help them out. Have to look at just what they have and what they need.

Still, many VFDs you can download free software and use ordinary cables. But others... I just don't understand the marketing aspect.
 
B

Birken Vogt

Senior Member
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
It is pure corporate evil greed.

They see us as a revenue stream.

The razor handle is cheap, the blades are expensive. The printer is cheap, the ink is expensive.

I once had a customer with equipment I did not have software for. He needed a small change. I asked him to pay 80% of the license and 80% of the dongle since I might use it elsewhere. That was a mistake. I never used it again. Should have asked 120%.
 
TwoBlocked

TwoBlocked

Senior Member
Location
Bradford County, PA
Occupation
Industrial Electrician
There's a simple conveyor installation job on the horizon. My first instinct is to go with hardwire controls. We'll see how complex it is.
 
ptonsparky

ptonsparky

Tom
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
TwoBlocked said:
Maybe by charging so much for the programming software, it weeds out guys that might hack things up and give the brand a bad name?
Click to expand...
I installed a couple CLICKs on potato field equipment ten years or so ago. Owners loved it. They bought used but newer, bigger equipment lately and want it modified. I uploaded the old to see what I had done and my first thought was WTF!


eta... software is free so that fits right in with your thoughts.
 
S

SceneryDriver

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Electrical and Automation Designer
AutomationDirect carries several lines of PLCs that have free software. I've used the BRX for years, and I've never found it wanting in terms of power or features.

The CLICK is great too for smaller projects - I have one controlling the HVAC at my house :) They're nearly bulletproof - I have several in some harsh conditions (non-climate-controlled outdoor electrical cabinets), and they keep on trucking.

AB's pricing and licensing is straight up predatory and they know it, and they don't care if you know it. They believe that once they have vendor lock-in at a facility, they can keep milking that cash cow. And it would be one thing if their software as actually good, but versioning and licensing is an absolute dumpster fire.

Allen Bradley - you can buy better, but you'll never pay more! Yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices!


SceneryDriver
 
petersonra

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
SceneryDriver said:
AutomationDirect carries several lines of PLCs that have free software. I've used the BRX for years, and I've never found it wanting in terms of power or features.

The CLICK is great too for smaller projects - I have one controlling the HVAC at my house :) They're nearly bulletproof - I have several in some harsh conditions (non-climate-controlled outdoor electrical cabinets), and they keep on trucking.
Click to expand...
The Click is a neat PLC for a few I/O. I don't use them real often as I rarely have projects that fit the limited I/O it can handle.

SceneryDriver said:
AB's pricing and licensing is straight up predatory and they know it, and they don't care if you know it. They believe that once they have vendor lock-in at a facility, they can keep milking that cash cow. And it would be one thing if their software as actually good, but versioning and licensing is an absolute dumpster fire.
Click to expand...
I don't find their licensing or versioning to be that much of a problem. They now restrict what versions are downloadable but they will let you access any version pretty much if you request it and paid your yearly fee.

SceneryDriver said:
Allen Bradley - you can buy better, but you'll never pay more! Yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices
Click to expand...
AB prices their stuff to be pretty competitive if you are an integrator or OEM. It's not going to be cheaper but it will be pretty competitive.

If you want more pain go with Siemens. They have all the ab issues plus a bad attitude. I am pretty much convinced they make radical changes to their programming software every few years just to annoy their customers. AB has made a ton of money by leaving the way the software works the same as it has been for > 30 years.

GE did the same thing to their customers. They had a superior product and messed with it every year or so by radically changing the software for no real reason. Then they sold it to Emerson. Hopefully Emerson will figure out how to undo the mess ge created.
 
drcampbell

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
TwoBlocked said:
Maybe by charging so much for the programming software, it weeds out guys that might hack things up and give the brand a bad name?
Click to expand...
Um, no; that's not how it works. There's little correlation between price & quality. Much of the best work is from the open-source software community. (though I'm not aware of them doing PLCs)

The rule of thumb in the software-creation biz is one line of correct, debugged, supported code per hour.
 
drcampbell

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
petersonra said:
... GE did the same thing to their customers. They had a superior product and messed with it every year or so by radically changing the software for no real reason. ...
Click to expand...
GE has done the same thing with their hard lines for as long as I can remember. Every 10 or 12 years, they bring out a new line of busways and bus taps. Not improved, just incompatible. The old style would remain in production for a while, but the price would double.
 
PaulMmn

PaulMmn

Senior Member
Location
Union, KY, USA
Occupation
EIT - Engineer in Training, Lafayette College
re: the current trend towards subscription software. In the business world, a company used to "buy" the software, then pays an annual maintenance fee, but is allowed to let everyone in the corporation use the software.
With the new model, the marketing people have figured out that they can make more money if they charge per users, annually, which often works out to be more than the old model. Consider Windows 10 (or 11). Corporations pay annually for each copy of the software in use. Other products the same.
 
TwoBlocked

TwoBlocked

Senior Member
Location
Bradford County, PA
Occupation
Industrial Electrician
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