Proposal #2-142 (AFCI's): What Do You Think?

[George Stolz]

In the November 2006 issue of EC&M magazine, the cover story was regarding the proposal currently under acceptance (as of end of ROP time) to mandate the use of AFCI breakers for every 15A and 20A circuit in a dwelling unit. It would spell the end of debates about what a bedroom is, which is arguably it's best feature ( ), but there are many strong opinions about it on both sides.

It has inspired me to run a poll of the forum, and see what the results would be.

I'm not really looking for much of a discussion in this: If you just vote, great. If you want to discuss, well, that's peachy too.

 

[stickboy1375]

It's fine by me... just really expensive!

 

[mdshunk]

I'd vote, but you didn't create a poll. I'm in favor of it. Anything that causes me to do additional work, and is mandated by law, will increase the bottom line. To that end, I am on board. Admittedly, until there are combination type AFCI's available, this may not enhance the safety of the installation.

 

[roger]

This is just money driven with nothing else along for the ride. AFCI's are snake oil, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't want to give away my vote though, so until a poll is started I won't keep going on about how this is stupid.

Roger

 

[George Stolz]

I'd vote, but you didn't create a poll.

It was kinda weird - I had to submit reply before I could begin whittling together a poll - it was kinda wild to finally finish it and see three responses already!

Edit to add:

• The responses are in order from most lax to most strict
• The second option is essentially the current breaker, minus the AFCI technology. It would detect ground faults over 50 mA, so it is not a GFCI (which looks for 4-6 mA of current to trip for protection of personnel). It is for protection of equipment only, and is what trips when we accidentally touch neutral to ground on the load side of an AFCI breaker.
• Branch Circuit/Feeder AFCIs are the type we currently install, which look for arcing faults over 75A
• Combination Type are the new ones, still in development, due out before 1/1/08 and mandated by the 2005 NEC. They are reputed to look at every load over 5A for arcing faults, and are supposed to detect arcing in cords plugged into the circuit, which the current BC/Feeder Type cannot.

 

[ken hall]

I just have a concern about the heat in the panel when it is loaded up with AFCI breakers.

 

[peter d]

I would not install AFCI's in my own home.

My home still has active knob and tube wiring, and I have no intention of replacing it anytime soon. I know that is not related to the topic, but I can sleep fine at night with an ancient wiring method in use, without AFCI protection on anything to boot.

The bottom line is that I simply do not believe that premises wiring is the cause of many dwelling unit fires, at least not in the numbers claimed by the "Big 4" electrical equipment manufactures.

 

[JohnJ0906]

I can't , in good consience, approve of the use of afci's until the manufacturers can prove they actually do what they say they do.

 

[roger]

I just have a concern about the heat in the panel when it is loaded up with AFCI breakers.

Ken, this is probably the hidden reason behind proposal #9-117 by Eaton Corporation (C-H) which will do away with the 42 circuit OCPD limitation in Lighting and Appliance Branch-Circuit Panels, this would alow for more spacing between the AFCI breakers.

Roger

 

[infinity]

Here in New Jersey AFCI protection is optional. Usually I will ask a potential customer if they want them installed at an additional cost. (for the most part they say no). Also I give them my opinion on their reliability. Personally I don't like them because they haven't worked out all of the kinks. And the concept of only requiring them where someone is sleeping doesn't make sense to me either. An arc in the kitchen can start a fire just as easily as in the bedroom.

 

[macmikeman]

I voted for the 50 ma gfci breaker option. That is one that currently is employed in protection of bedroom outlet circuits very nicely. And I have noticed that the gfci breaker option works very well when shorted. Works faster to interrupt the current. So the breaker fella's should just fess up and admit that they depend on the gfi part of the afci breaker, and let the code change to require gfci protection on branch circuits supplying bedroom circuits. Now nobody would be fibbing, things trip faster, things would be safer, and the cost would still be up there so MDshunk could still get his increase in markup on his installs.

 

[bphgravity]

According to the NEMA reports, this appears to be the language the 2008 NEC will have for 210.12(B).

(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

 

[al hildenbrand]

According to the NEMA reports, this appears to be the language the 2008 NEC will have for 210.12(B).

Very interesting.

NOT:

2005 NEC 210.52(B)(1)
. . .In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, xxxxxx xxxx, or similar area

I can see it now. . .the amount of debate on what a bedroom is will pale in comparison to this one. . .

 

[al hildenbrand]

:smile: Heh!

And, as quoted in Bryan's post above, the outlet outside of these "named" rooms or areas that is controlled from within a named room or area is still left up for further discussion.

 

[George Stolz]

Al, I agree, the tenative wording is a recipe for...very bad things, as far as defining similar areas go.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I see an upsurge in the labeling of areas like Office, Study, Workshop, etc. I also note that attics, unfinished basements, garages, sheds, utility rooms, atriums, foyers, vestibules, lounges, home theaters, studios "and similar areas" are not listed.

:smile:

 

[renosteinke]

Proposal #2-142 (AFCI's)

Proposal #2-142 (AFCI's)

I note that the poll is going in a direction quite different from the position of the code committee. So much for 'consensus.'

We have much to lose, once we let "best' become the enemy of 'good enough.'

 

[tallgirl]

Very interesting.

NOT: I can see it now. . .the amount of debate on what a bedroom is will pale in comparison to this one. . .

"What are food preparation and eating rooms?"

 

[George Stolz]

1,752 active members of a total of 32,612 members, and I get 31 responses to my poll. I can pick some pretty boring poll items, I reckon.

Mostly, this is just a bump.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I am not taking sides on this topic, just providing some info I know about.

The temperature issue of the breakers will become a non-issue after November of '07. The electronics that control the devices are being re-engineered and will run at a reduced temperature. I spoke with 3 of the 4 manufacturers and they have all said their new products will be available by November of '07.

I believe that before they push the devices into the whole house, that the development of this product be much further along...the manufacturer in my opinion is using the NEC to fund the development of what should be their costs, this way they will bear very little of the burden...sneaky in my opinion.

The technology is not there yet to make this bold move and will ultimately leave the consumer with the cost, a huge cost at that.