Pulling wire through 480V energized panels. Yes or no?

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Jon456

Jon456

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Colorado
For those who have not been following the saga in my recent threads, here's the background story...

Eighteen months ago, we hired a contractor to install a 1MW solar system at our commercial facility. Part of that job was for him to pull our facility's main aluminum feeders (between our service switch gear and our main distribution panel) out of four conduit and re-pull them into two conduit, thus freeing up conduit for the new copper solar feeders that would be feeding our solar power back out to the grid. Several weeks ago, one entire conduit of aluminum feeders shorted out. Insulation resistance testing has since revealed that some of the remaining aluminum feeders are also damaged, as well as a number of the new copper solar feeders. Clearly, the installation crews damaged the insulation during the wire pulls. We made a claim against the installation contractor, demanding that he repair/replace the feeders in accordance with his original contract, which specified a 10-year warranty on all his work.

The installation contractor is now back on site determining how to pull out and replace the feeders. We informed him that he was responsible for renting a generator to provide electrical power to our facility (and our on-site commercial tenants) while he was replacing the feeders. Because this contractor is always trying to cut corners to save money, he informed me that he intends to pull the wires through the two panels (the main switch gear and the distribution panel) while those panels are electrically energized so that he didn't need to rent a generator. Our service is 480V/1,000A 3-phase wye. I notified the property owner of this plan and discussed with him the hazards of electrocution and arc flash that could occur and the OSHA & NFPA requirements for working in an energized panel. In addition to the tragedy of a person possibly losing his life or limb, I also expressed concern that we would be financially liable in any wrongful injury/death lawsuit that could result. The owner agreed, and as a goodwill gesture to encourage the contractor to put safety ahead of dollars, our facility owner offered to share the cost of the generator (even though he had no obligation to do so).

The contractor has stated there are no safety issues with pulling through the energized cabinets, and that he still wants to do so. He is getting bids from sub-contractors to assist him with these pulls (because he lacks the experience and proper equipment to do it right himself) and he's stated that at least one of these potential sub-contractors has also expressed no concerns about pulling through the panels energized. Our facility general manager has stated that, if we are to permit them to work in the energized panels, that they must first "sign a waiver of liability stating that we warned them it was not safe and absolving us of any responsibility if someone gets hurt, and agreeing to defend and indemnify us against any resultant lawsuits." However, I'm not sure if such a waiver would hold up in court, particularly since our company would be the defendant with the deepest pockets.

Tomorrow (Monday, 12 May), we'll be having a meeting to discuss how to proceed on this matter, and the owner is seeking my advice on whether we should permit the contractor to pull through the energized cabinets. To me, the decision is clear: there is no compelling reason for anyone to be working inside these energized panels. The only reason the contractor wishes to do so is to save himself the cost of renting a generator. FWIW, I strongly doubt that this contractor even owns any arc flash PPE because he's done some work inside our energized cabinets before and has never worn any protective gear at all.

Am I being overly concerned about the hazards and too much a stickler on regulations? Or should we insist the contractor get a generator and de-energize our cabinets before replacing these feeders?
 
Jon456 said:
Eighteen months ago, we hired a contractor to install a 1MW solar system at our commercial facility. Part of that job was for him to pull our facility's main aluminum feeders (between our service switch gear and our main distribution panel) out of four conduit and re-pull them into two conduit, thus freeing up conduit for the new copper solar feeders that would be feeding our solar power back out to the grid. Several weeks ago, one entire conduit of aluminum feeders shorted out. Insulation resistance testing has since revealed that some of the remaining aluminum feeders are also damaged, as well as a number of the new copper solar feeders. Clearly, the installation crews damaged the insulation during the wire pulls. We made a claim against the installation contractor, demanding that he repair/replace the feeders in accordance with his original contract, which specified a 10-year warranty on all his work.

The installation contractor is now back on site determining how to pull out and replace the feeders. We informed him that he was responsible for renting a generator to provide electrical power to our facility (and our on-site commercial tenants) while he was replacing the feeders. Because this contractor is always trying to cut corners to save money, he informed me that he intends to pull the wires through the two panels (the main switch gear and the distribution panel) while those panels are electrically energized so that he didn't need to rent a generator. Our service is 480V/1,000A 3-phase wye. I notified the property owner of this plan and discussed with him the hazards of electrocution and arc flash that could occur and the OSHA & NFPA requirements for working in an energized panel. In addition to the tragedy of a person possibly losing his life or limb, I also expressed concern that we would be financially liable in any wrongful injury/death lawsuit that could result. The owner agreed, and as a goodwill gesture to encourage the contractor to put safety ahead of dollars, our facility owner offered to share the cost of the generator (even though he had no obligation to do so).

The contractor has stated there are no safety issues with pulling through the energized cabinets, and that he still wants to do so. He is getting bids from sub-contractors to assist him with these pulls (because he lacks the experience and proper equipment to do it right himself) and he's stated that at least one of these potential sub-contractors has also expressed no concerns about pulling through the panels energized. Our facility general manager has stated that, if we are to permit them to work in the energized panels, that they must first "sign a waiver of liability stating that we warned them it was not safe and absolving us of any responsibility if someone gets hurt, and agreeing to defend and indemnify us against any resultant lawsuits." However, I'm not sure if such a waiver would hold up in court, particularly since our company would be the defendant with the deepest pockets.

Tomorrow (Monday, 12 May), we'll be having a meeting to discuss how to proceed on this matter, and the owner is seeking my advice on whether we should permit the contractor to pull through the energized cabinets. To me, the decision is clear: there is no compelling reason for anyone to be working inside these energized panels. The only reason the contractor wishes to do so is to save himself the cost of renting a generator. FWIW, I strongly doubt that this contractor even owns any arc flash PPE because he's done some work inside our energized cabinets before and has never worn any protective gear at all.

Am I being overly concerned about the hazards and too much a stickler on regulations? Or should we insist the contractor get a generator and de-energize our cabinets before replacing these feeders?
Click to expand...

it is NOT permitted to work hot UNLESS, AND ONLY UNLESS,
the risk of working it off exceeds the risk of working it hot.
think refinery with a process going out of control, stuff like that.

don't permit it. if you do, expect to get sued if it goes south.
even if you have knowledge of it, and don't permit it, expect
to get sued if it goes south.

a waiver cannot set aside osha. if it could, it'd be waiverville everywhere.

sounds like your contractor, not to put too fine a point on it, is a dipshit.
bluster and bullshit don't circumvent ohm's law.

now.... all that hyperbole aside. if i had to repull something like this,
i'd do it like this......

if there was a straight shot, i'd pull a hole in the top of the gear, sleeve
the conduits in schedule 80, out the top, and then feed thru the schedule
80. you can pull the pipe out afterwards, and use a bushing on the hole
you made so you don't nick anything.

if i had to snoodle it a bit, i'd heat the pipe and pre bend it so i could
get it out the top.

but i'd do it with a good crew, and not the idiot that screwed it up in
the first place.

schedule an outage to put in the sleeves. pull the wire. megger it right
after the pull. schedule another outage to pull the sleeves, and land it.
pull the chase nipples out of the holes on the top of the gear, and put
a myers hub with a plug, or a raintight closure approved for the purpose.

i wouldn't offer to help pay for the generator. it just subsidizes incompetence.

in 35 years, i've never ruined feeders, ever. and i'm not the sharpest knife
in the drawer. but i do suffer fools poorly.

drop the air brakes on this idiot. having the misfortune to hire an idiot is
one thing. letting him lead you to madness is another thing altogether.

good luck with your situation. let us know how it turns out.
 
Be sure to print waivers only on the front side of each piece of paper, that way they will have some value, namely you can use the blank backs as scratch paper.:lol: Waivers are only decorative.:blink:
 
Fulthrotl said:
but i'd do it with a good crew, and not the idiot that screwed it up in
the first place.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your advice and concerns.

Since it is warranty repair work, we are obligated to give him the opportunity to correct his mistakes. That said, if he refuses to do the work in a manner that is correct and safe, then we have the option to hire another contractor and sue the original contractor for that expense. But who wants to deal with the hassle of a lawsuit?

Fulthrotl said:
i wouldn't offer to help pay for the generator. it just subsidizes incompetence.
Click to expand...
I might have to borrow that quote! ;)

My bigger concern is that, since management has offered to help offset the cost of the generator (which the contractor has interpreted as -- and written into his repair contract as -- "facility owner is to pay the entire bill for the generator"), the owner and general manager may now be more easily convinced by the contractor to pull hot, since they are now going to be weighing the costs of the generator in their own decisions.
 
zbang said:
Kind of covers it. Besides, you're the customer, if you say "Shut 'er down", do it.
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One would think, right? But this contractor has a history of ignoring our directives and doing whatever he wants to do (and ONLY what he wants to do). His personality is to never accept responsibility, to blame everyone and everything other than himself, to lie and obfuscate, and to play "passive-aggressive" games (pretends to be nice and agrees to your face, then simply does his own thing). It's extremely difficult to work with him.

For example, we have asked him multiple time to provide us with a detailed written plan of how he intends to correct these damaged wires, including a schedule of any planned power outages. One of the reasons for our requesting this is so we can review the equipment and techniques he intends to employ to ensure further damage is not done, as well as to address safety concerns like we're discussing here. The schedule also allows us to plan for, and notify our commercial tenants in advance of, any maintenance power outages. He has simply ignored our requests. When pressed, all he would give us was the following empty statement (repeated six times for each damaged feeder run): "We will remove the wires, inspect and repair or replace, and pull back in accordance with industry standards and best practices."

zbang said:
How long would you need the temp generator?
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Hard to tell because, as I stated, he refuses to give us a work plan or schedule. But I would estimate no more than three days. Our facility's historical maximum load is 80kW (approx 130A @ 480V, assuming a pf of 0.75).

zbang said:
It can't be that expensive compared to a flash toasting a piece of gear out of service (which they contractor would be liable for).
Click to expand...
That's an excellent point. I've been focusing on the injury/death hazards and forgot about the potential damage to our equipment. Thanks!
 
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Update...

The owner of our facility has directed the contractor that he must provide a generator and that he is not permitted to work inside our electrical panels while energized.

So yesterday, the contractor met with me to give me an update on the status of the job and to tell me his proposal for future work. During that conversation, he informed me that his new plan is to disconnect our feeders from the main lugs in our distribution panel, and connect the generator's power cable leads to those main lugs in order to continue supplying power to our facility while he performs his repair work. He said that this arrangement will be safe because he will blanket off the hot lugs and busbars in the open energized panel. To me, there is no practical difference or safety advantage to doing this versus simply leaving the feeders energized and landed on the lugs. I doubt that this would comply with OSHA or NFPA requirements.

What say you?
 
Jon456 said:
Update...

The owner of our facility has directed the contractor that he must provide a generator and that he is not permitted to work inside our electrical panels while energized.

So yesterday, the contractor met with me to give me an update on the status of the job and to tell me his proposal for future work. During that conversation, he informed me that his new plan is to disconnect our feeders from the main lugs in our distribution panel, and connect the generator's power cable leads to those main lugs in order to continue supplying power to our facility while he performs his repair work. He said that this arrangement will be safe because he will blanket off the hot lugs and busbars in the open energized panel. To me, there is no practical difference or safety advantage to doing this versus simply leaving the feeders energized and landed on the lugs. I doubt that this would comply with OSHA or NFPA requirements.

What say you?
Click to expand...

If your company allows this work to proceed the company will be subject to OSHA action.

They cannot work it hot.
 
It sounds to me like there is something going on here that is not real obvious. Why would any owner tolerate this kind of behaviour from a contractor? He should have been thrown off the site a long time ago.

If the contractor is unwilling to do the work in an appropriate way it is long past time to cut your losses and get a new contractor.

My guess is there is a critical piece of the story not being told.
 
petersonra said:
My guess is there is a critical piece of the story not being told.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is often called a contract:p and if they toss this guy off the job they will have to pay for the same work twice unless they sue the first contractor.

In the first post we see that the contractor agreed to a 10 year warranty and the customer made a claim at 18 months.

This first contractor seems to be on the hook for this work and is obviously trying to save as much money as they can on this repair.

Tossing the first contractor, paying another contractor for the repairs and then going after the first contractor will be frustrating and costly.
 
At some point you have to cut your losses.

I think the owner and his lawyer need to sit down with the contractor and his lawyer and explain reality to the contractor.

The bottom line is that no one is going to like the end result of whatever ends up happening, but there are ways to reduce the hurt to both parties.

The fact that the contractor has to go hire subs to do the work suggests he is going to take a good sized hit anyway. Might as well do it right.

Maybe some kind of negotiated settlement is appropriate and they part ways.
 
Jon456 said:
Update...

The owner of our facility has directed the contractor that he must provide a generator and that he is not permitted to work inside our electrical panels while energized.

...
What say you?
Click to expand...

Sounds like he agreed not to work in it energized.

Working in it energized by a generator is still energized.
 
mgookin said:
Sounds like he agreed not to work in it energized.

Working in it energized by a generator is still energized.
Click to expand...

but... you don't ***understand***......

if he uses his genset, then it's HIS electricity, and he doesn't have to follow
any rules.

let's cut to the chase.

first, the cables in question, the cheese whiz is gonna pull them out across
the parking lot, tape up the snarky spots, and pull them back in. count on it.

to him, that is "best practices". that phrase is usually uttered by an idiot right
before they do something that removes all doubt of their lack of competence.

but, you have to give him the right to make "warranty repairs". then you can
hammer his bond to death to make the repairs.

don't forget liquidated damages on interruption of your critical business processes.

so here's how it goes:

ok, chucklebunny electric, you have an 18 hour outage starting this coming
saturday night, thru labor day. at the end of that time a 1000 volt polarization
index will be performed phase to phase and phase to ground by a third party
test service.

NO ENERGIZED WORK SHALL BE PERMITTED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

failure to complete with the repair successfully will result in the removal of
your worthless ass from the facility, and get-r-doneright electric will perform
the necessary repairs, and a claim will be filed with your bonding company for
the full repair. hopefully it will put you out of business.

the wording of course, is completely optional, as long as we voiced this idea
without reservation.

my experience with people like this is they are no more capable of making
the necessary repairs than they were of doing it correctly in the first place.
 
yeah you are right.. if anything wrong occurs than who will be responsible for that. These electricity flaws are very necessary to configure otherwise it may cause someone to lose his life or limb. you should take some quick action against this as soon as possible.
 
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