Pushmatic split buss 1950ish I think

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Stubbie

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Good morning

Have a job that is to start Friday once the poco pulls the meter. This is the result of a house closing and issues written up by the buyers home inspector. My employer has been hired to inspect, repair or replace these issues.

I've looked at the job and would like some input to some questions I have. We will be dealing with an old pushmatic Electri-Center (100 amp) using these type breakers

http://www.aplussupply.com/break/push/push.htm

This is the first time I have been in a panel like this. It is split buss. The bottom half of the panel is the lighting section and is controlled by a 50 amp breaker in the top half. The top half of course are main disconnects to 240 olt loads like the range.

I found this thread while researching this type panel so I could shorten my learning curve having not dealt with one of these panels.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=66644&highlight=pushmatic+breakers

A reply by noxx that these breakers will not trip on over current...only overload...has me concerned. So I hope my coming question is not to trivial.

The house is wired with no grounding non-metallic romex all going to the pushmatic. A MLO GE 100 amp sub-panel has been added in 1998 fed from a 60 amp breaker in the upper half of the pushmatic. It is a #2 awg seu al cable feeder. All wiring out of the GE sub is modern nm-b.

So two questions (for now).

1.) The range branch circuit is a older cloth sheathed al seu #8.. 3 wire, however it was cut and spliced in a jb to 10/3 nm-b copper using regular wirenuts. OCPD is a pushmatic 40 amp. So question....It is a very simple run from either panel so will replace with a 4 wire #8 copper cable probably nm-b. The new range that was recently installed is 10.7KW.

If these pushmatics only trip on thermal overload is it going to serve any purpose to run a four wire to the pushmatic?

I'm thinking run to the new GE sub-panel if this is the case. Demand load is small only split system central air and gas heat. Ge panel is feeding all the kitchen lights and kitchen receptacles from a new remodel in the late 90's several spaces are open.


2.) The A/c is newer but is also DIY as was the deal with the range branch circuit. The branch circuit is 10/2 G copper nm-b but they cut the ground off just outside the pushmatic panel clamp as the outer sheath does not go into the clamp. No place to put the ground I guess as the neutral buss is full. Anyway question....

Are these pushmatics HACR rated? I would assume they are not.... age dating before we rated breakers for hacr. I don't see a listing on the breaker but really can't read anything on them. No issues with the A/C as per owners statement using the pushmatic.

If not then we have to move this to the ge sub panel? I have read UL 489 and it seems just about any modern breaker is now acceptable for HACR applications whether listed as such or not....maybe misinterpreting what I see there but only way I can positively get Hacr is from the new GE.

Now, if so, I have a 40 amp range branch circuit and a a/c on the feeder to the sub and all of the kitchen, choosing that as an option. I haven't looked at the A/c nameplate yet but is a small home less than 1000 sq. ft. so unless the homeowner did some godzilla condenser unit I should be looking at a min. circuit ampacity in the 20's. They have the a/c 10/2 G on a 50 amp pushmatic breaker. Playing with the options to move the range and a/c loads to the sub and upsizing the ocpd and feeder ampacity due to the 60c terminations in the pushmatic seems to get a little goofy in design. Yes ... I know the feeder needs to be 4 wire.


Comments please

EDIT: A panel replacement or service upgrade is not going to happen, unless buyers agree to pay for it. We have already ran that by the seller.

Stubbie
 
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Remember this: You were the last person to work on this panel. You will hear it again if there is a problem. Get someone to sign they refused to replace that old junk.
 
This is one persons experience.

I have lived in two different homes with pushmatics since the mid 60's. I have always considered the Pushmatic breaker to be one of the best performing breakers ever built (my other favorites are the SQD QO, C-H CH). I have no intention of relacing the one in my own home. My only problem with them has been their habit of not being able to be reset. They use a push-on push-off mechanism that will sometimes stick, or even break off causing the breaker to fail in the off (safe) position. I believe Siemens/ITE still manufacture pushmatic breakers.
 
Thanks, I have mostly heard good things about the pushmatics but from a safety and operational standpoint I have not been able to get much information as far as operating loads like ac from these breakers and this thermal trip only thing. There is another issue with this panel namely corrosion on the neutral lugs to the sub feeder and and range branch circuit. The service neutral lug appears fine. These lugs are riveted to the neutral bus. So this may become a pivoting factor if we cannot correct this corrosion satisfactorily. The issue here is are we going to be able to get the set screws loose in order to get back to good wire and reconnect.

If the moderator gives me the ok I will post pictures on a shared photo site as soon as I can get them and maybe discuss. Maybe others would be interested in seeing how this panel is constructed.

Stubbie
 
I'm with Jim on this one

I'm with Jim on this one

I was still installing Pushmatic panels and breakers on brand-new installations and service changes well into the early 1980's. I can't begin to guess how many 200 amp main breaker panels I installed in Northern New Jersey, even in new homes. They were the only residential panel out there that offered a bolted busbar connection. I never had a bit of trouble out of them and if I could get my hands on a new panel today, I'd replace my GE panel full of THQL and THQP breakers with a Pushmatic.

I never installed any split bus panels from any manufacturer and I am glad that I didn't. Talk about an accident waiting to happen.
 
So your saying the pushmatic panels that aren't split buss are great. Ok fair enough but I'm not quite following why a split buss from any manufacturer is a accident waiting to happen. Do you feel this way from the standpoint of working in them? We always deenergize a main panel when we do anything in them. I would concede if you didn't recognize it as a split buss you might get a surprise. This panel has totally exposed busses no way I'm getting in it without power removed.

Or do you feel that way because of something faulty in the design?



Stubbie
 
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I am a huge Pushmatic fan. I think they're fantastic. In your case, however, I'd replace that panel simply due to the cost of the breakers. If you're gonna add more than just a couple, it's more economic to swap out the panel.
 
My comment on accident waiting to happen

My comment on accident waiting to happen

Stubbie:

In my years of working up north, specifically in New Jersey, nearly every older home was "all gas", meaning that a split-bus panel usually didn't have anything in the main section except the lighting main and maybe, just maybe, a 2-pole breaker for air conditioning. I can't tell you how many times those remaining eight breaker spaces became too much of a temptation to Harry Homeowner who proceeded to put his single-pole circuits up there for the attic fan, the yard light, the light under the stairs, you know what I mean. Now, we end up with a total of ten disconnecting means. Sorry, but that really does sound like trouble to me.

I think that a professional will immediately recognize that they are working within a split bus panel right off the bat. It's the homeowner who sees that breaker labeled "main" and thinks that they have the power cut off that scares me.
 
EV60797:

That is exactly what I was getting at that Joe would not recognize it as a split buss. Yes a professional would see it , I did not mean to imply otherwise. I hadn't thought of the other vacant spaces being a problem for abuse by the homeowner and too many disconnects. I do see your point.

Md:

The panel is full though I didn't look to see if all the singles are in use. This was just to get a look at what we were going to be dealing with in a few days. I do agree it would be nice to get the go ahead for a panel replacement, will have to wait and see. The dang thing is back behind the water heater in the basement and running veritcally about 12 inches in front of the panel from the floor to first floor joists is a 4 inch waste line. I can't even stand in front of the panel.

Stubbie
 
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Stubbie said:
The dang thing is back behind the water heater in the basement and running veritcally about 12 inches in front of the panel from the floor to first floor joists is a 4 inch waste line. I can't even stand in front of the panel.
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I'm sorta surprised that the home inspector didn't call that out on the basis of working space. They're generally pretty sharp about that. There have been panels and vaults that I've refused to work on due to lack of working space. I think you might be able to figure out a reason to replace this panel. I'd certainly try, if it was me.
 
Marc:

I havent actually seen the home inspector report as yet.... but you took the words right out of my mouth. My primary purpose was to look at corrosion in the pushmatic the other issues I ran across in the process. I don't know if they are in the report to the sellers and/or buyers or not. Too much corrosion and we dont fool with the thing... it either gets replaced or we walk. My opinion is that it can be cleaned up and continue in service. But a replacement is by far the best option. This will all have to be sorted out with the owner.

Stubbie
 
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Stubbie said:
My opinion is that it can be cleaned up and continue in service.
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I've recently learned that there's no code compliant, NEMA compliant, or UL compliant way to remove corrosion from a panel.
 
Interesting, that would be nice. I'll run that by my boss. I have never heard this though it does make sense. Guess that gives me another thing I learned today. Personally it is a crap shoot whether or not we are going to get the lugs loose to clean it up anyway.

stubbie
 
the only good thing about them is they bolt on ..
after use the on/off indicating lettering starts to
get hard to tell if its on or off and they do have a tendency
not to reset.. thats what I've seen over the years plus the cost
of them...
 
donselectric said:
...after use the on/off indicating lettering starts to
get hard to tell if its on or off ...
Click to expand...

On all of the "Off" pushmatics I have seen, the handle sticks out about 1/8" from the rest of the breaker. An "On" breaker is basically flush.
 
I would agree Jim, I exercised all the breakers and they worked fine and I could tell if they were off or on without the indicator.

stubbie
 
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