PV Line Side Connection

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shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
For a PV Supply Side Connection, one common practice is to use insulating piercing connectors to splice a Supply Side wiring method inside the cabinet of a panelboard ahead of the Main Service Disconnecting Means, then route the wiring method through the enclosure and out to the PV Disconnect.

Would this practice be in violation of 312.8 given that there is no way to comply with 312.8(3) as there is NO disconnecting means for those feed-through conductors passing through the enclosure?
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
For a PV Supply Side Connection, one common practice is to use insulating piercing connectors to splice a Supply Side wiring method inside the cabinet of a panelboard ahead of the Main Service Disconnecting Means, then route the wiring method through the enclosure and out to the PV Disconnect.

Would this practice be in violation of 312.8 given that there is no way to comply with 312.8(3) as there is NO disconnecting means for those feed-through conductors passing through the enclosure?

312.8 does not say that the disconnecting means has to de-energize the feed through conductors in the enclosure they are passing through. I think it is referring to a down stream disconnect in many cases. So I would say there's no violation. Clear labeling would be a good thing in these cases even if this section didn't require it.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
It take it to mean the disconnecting means on the load end of the conductors:

"...for conductors feeding through, spliced,or tapping off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent devices..."​
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
Section 312.8(3) says..."closest disconnecting means for any feed-through conductors"

How do you guys get that that means for the disconnect downstream?

This language was added in the 2011 Code. Its was intended from my research to provide warning that there is live conductors in the cabinet and label the equipment to where the disconnecting means is located for disconnecting the power to them.

Also, a Disconnecting Means is to disconnect circuit conductors from their source of supply.

I agree clear labeling is needed in the interest of safety. Many a homeowner or unqualified person opens residential cabinets to do their own work. They shut off the main and think they only have live conductors at the supply-side of the main to worry about.

WARNING: PV Supply Side Connection. This enclosure contains conductors that remain energized when the Main Disconnect is off.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Section 312.8(3) says..."closest disconnecting means for any feed-through conductors"

How do you guys get that that means for the disconnect downstream?

How are you getting that it necessarily means upstream? I think it can be either.

This language was added in the 2011 Code. Its was intended from my research to provide warning that there is live conductors in the cabinet and label the equipment to where the disconnecting means is located for disconnecting the power to them.

Also, a Disconnecting Means is to disconnect circuit conductors from their source of supply.

Okay, but we're still talking about a panelboard that has service conductors entering it with no upstream disconnect. It doesn't matter if you prohibit me from tapping those conductors inside the enclosure, you still ain't got a way to turn those conductors off inside the enclosure.

WARNING: PV Supply Side Connection. This enclosure contains conductors that remain energized when the Main Disconnect is off.

That label might make sense for the PV disco, but for a service panel you have serivce conductors that remain energized if there is no supply-side connection. You could argue that label, minus the first sentence, should be on every service panel with field installed service conductors inside the enclosure. I dont think that's what the code is calling for. If qualified people can't figure out that service conducters remain energized, then they are...unqualified...and shouldn't be working in that service panel.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I agree clear labeling is needed in the interest of safety. Many a homeowner or unqualified person opens residential cabinets to do their own work. They shut off the main and think they only have live conductors at the supply-side of the main to worry about.

But in the case of a supply side connection, they are correct; all the live conductors are on the supply side of the main breaker. In the case of a load side connection, again they are correct - UL 1741.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Would this practice be in violation of 312.8 given that there is no way to comply with 312.8(3) as there is NO disconnecting means for those feed-through conductors passing through the enclosure?

312.8(3) would not apply to splices or taps made inside an enclosure, it only applies to feed through conductors. I'll revise what I posted earlier and say 312.8(3) would identify the disconnect located in the circuit before the conductors feed through the enclosure.

If you did a supply side interconnection, ran the conductors out of the enclosure where the interconnection was made, then through another enclosure, and then to the PV disconnect you would have a problem.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
How are you getting that it necessarily means upstream? I think it can be either.

By the definition of Disconnecting Means.

Okay, but we're still talking about a panelboard that has service conductors entering it with no upstream disconnect. It doesn't matter if you prohibit me from tapping those conductors inside the enclosure, you still ain't got a way to turn those conductors off inside the enclosure.

Were not talking about the service conductors that enter the cabinet. They don't feed-through the cabinet. I'm discussing the Supply Side Connected inverter output conductors of a interactive system that splice onto the service conductors and feed-through the cabinet to the PV Disconnecting Means. Yes, there is no way to turn off power to these conductors...thats the danger.


That label might make sense for the PV disco, but for a service panel you have serivce conductors that remain energized if there is no supply-side connection. You could argue that label, minus the first sentence, should be on every service panel with field installed service conductors inside the enclosure. I dont think that's what the code is calling for. If qualified people can't figure out that service conducters remain energized, then they are...unqualified...and shouldn't be working in that service panel.

Every panelboard has a warning label to caution about disconnecting power before working on it. Its a real world out there and unqualified persons do open cabinets to work inside. The problem I see is that these supply side connected conductors do more than just land at the Main Service Disconnect. They splice onto those service conductors and feed-through that cabinet without any overcurrent or fault current protection and no disconnecting means other than pulling the meter or cutting the service at the service point. This practice, IMO is against 90.1, practical safeguarding.

The 705.12(A) Supply Side Connection should be made outside of the cabinet.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
312.8(3) would not apply to splices or taps made inside an enclosure, it only applies to feed through conductors. I'll revise what I posted earlier and say 312.8(3) would identify the disconnect located in the circuit before the conductors feed through the enclosure.


So your interpretation of feed-through conductors are those that enter a cabinet, feed-through, and then exit a cabinet.

With a Supply Side Connection inside the cabinet... the Service Conductors enter the cabinet, splice and feed-through the cabinet, exit and go to the PV disconnect.

If you did a supply side interconnection, ran the conductors out of the enclosure where the interconnection was made, then through another enclosure, and then to the PV disconnect you would have a problem.

So its a problem downstream to have those conductors feed-through a cabinet, but not in the cabinet with the Supply Side Connection? What is the difference in the hazard?
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
By the definition of Disconnecting Means.
Well that's a stretch in my opinion. You can't make sense of any of the uses of 'Disconnecting Means' in article 230 if you insist on reading the definition so literally.

Were not talking about the service conductors that enter the cabinet. They don't feed-through the cabinet. I'm discussing the Supply Side Connected inverter output conductors of a interactive system that splice onto the service conductors and feed-through the cabinet to the PV Disconnecting Means. Yes, there is no way to turn off power to these conductors...thats the danger.
Actually, one could argue that they don't feed through the cabinet but rather terminate at the splice. The code is not clear on the proper category for the supply side connected PV conductors, as we know from the dragged-out arguments we've had about it on this forum. The NFPA called them a feeder, so clearly the feeder ends where it hits the service conductors. To be clear, I think this is a semantic argument; ultimately it doesn't matter what words we name them with, what matters is safety. And I remain unconvinced that splicing in an existing main service panel adds any danger that doesn't already exist by having service entrance conductors field installed to a main disconnect inside the enclosure (which is undeniably permitted).

I've seen some service conductors that wind their way through three quarters of a service panel before they land on the main breaker. When the deadfront is off, that's a lot more exposed, unprotected, non-disconnectable conductor than on many of my supply-side taps. And yet, it's not a violation, and it doesn't need to be.

Every panelboard has a warning label to caution about disconnecting power before working on it. Its a real world out there and unqualified persons do open cabinets to work inside. The problem I see is that these supply side connected conductors do more than just land at the Main Service Disconnect. They splice onto those service conductors and feed-through that cabinet without any overcurrent or fault current protection and no disconnecting means other than pulling the meter or cutting the service at the service point. This practice, IMO is against 90.1, practical safeguarding.
To reiterate, nothing you've described about the supply-side connected conductors doesn't also apply to the previously existing service conductors. There is no additional danger that wasn't already there. The service conductors in the enclosure, which also don't have overcurrent or fault protection, are just as dangerous. If someone doesn't understand that those conductors remain energized, then I don't believe any amount of labeling or requiring conductors to be routed any which way is going to keep such a person safe. Such a person shouldn't be working in the panel.

The 705.12(A) Supply Side Connection should be made outside of the cabinet.

I don't think your interpreted requirement addresses the safety issue you're concerned about. An unqualified person could still think that a 'main disconnect' de-energizes the conductors in the separate PV disconnect. By requiring the splice to be hidden in another enclosure you potentially add to the confusion and difficulty of someone figuring out the installation, qualified or not. For that matter, even a qualified person could think that a 'service disconnect' de-energizes the whole building, especially if the separate PV disconnect is not also labeled as such. That, after all, is what service disconnecting means are supposed to do. Tangent: this is one of the reasons I think the code should take sides and call supply-side PV conductors service entrance conductors and require a supply side disconnect to be labeled as a 'service disconnect'. That's where I'd invoke 90.1, if it were up to me.

To sum up, I disagree. And I certainly hope that the many AHJs who've permitted me to tap in the main service panel don't change their minds and require much, much costlier work in order to meet an interpretation which does not, in my opinion, increase anyone's safety one iota.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
To sum up, I disagree. And I certainly hope that the many AHJs who've permitted me to tap in the main service panel don't change their minds and require much, much costlier work in order to meet an interpretation which does not, in my opinion, increase anyone's safety one iota.
I agree, although CPS (San Antonio) does not. Line side connections in their jurisdiction must be done in a separate tap box. Elsewhere else in Texas we normally tap the service conductors in the panel ahead of the main breaker.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
Here is a panelboard where the cabinet is compartmentalized for the area where service conductors are. This would be great for PV supply side connections. This is used in Canada.

https://www.lowes.ca/products/view.aspx?family=1434220

The 2017 NEC code section 408.3(A)(2) will include the requirement for barriers on exposed live parts ahead of the main with an exception for panelboards with up to 6-switches. This won't be as extream as the panelboard in the link above. They will just be guarding the open lugs at the line side of the main. I think aftermarket kits will be available too. (I know this has nothing to do with the OP)

Thanks for your opinions on 312.8(3). There is an article in Electrical Contractor this month that had me looking at this.

shortcircuit
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
In my opinion that kind of enclosure addresses the safety issues you raised more concretely than a separate enclosure for a tap, since it addresses the service conductors and not just the supply-side tap conductors. And in such a case I wouldn't object to broadly interpreting 110.3(B) to say that a supply side tap in such a panelboard should be done behind the barrier and the tapped conductors not run through the lower part of the panel.
 
In a conversation with a Schneider tech support man, he said if we spliced into the service conductors between the main and the meter Schneider probably wouldn't stand behind their warranty if something happened. He said they just haven't tested it. There could be concerns about temperature, the UL listing, etc. How do solar installers handle warranty and UL listing concerns with respect to line side taps?
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
If conductors are factory installed, whether busbars or wires, I don't touch them. If conductors between main and meter are field installed then I'll use Polaris type connectors, typically. I prefer to get lucky and find panels which have an additional breaker slot for a service disconnecting means.

On large switch gear you can get UL to come out and field list an installation where you might do something like drill new holes in a busbar and add lugs, or add lugs to existing bolts. I understand it costs several grand. It's not worth doing on systems where replacing the service panel costs less than that (i.e. residential).

I've seen a brochure for Homeline meter mains that can be retrofitted with a listed lug kit. I've not seen one in person though. That sort of thing is rare and not of much help if you're trying to avoid replacing an existing service panel.

Just to reiterate the other options:
-Replace MSP
-Downsize main breaker (dependent on load calculation and customer and AHJ approval)
-Downsize solar system
 
That's sound direction.

In some areas another option is a meter collar adapter like the ConnectDER. Schneider tech support said because it's mounted external to their panel it would not have any effect on the panel listing or warranty. It can accept up to 80A PV OCPD. It's UL listed, but PG&E hasn't approved it yet.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
FWIW someone from PG&E told me they will consider the ConnectDER for their 2017 Green Book, which I gather becomes effective July 1. We'll have to wait and see if they approve something and whether they'll charge $1500 or similar like SDG&E.
 
I see. The PG&E rep who talked to me said they have a pilot program but haven't "rolled it out yet" but he didn't tell me a timeframe. It looks like a nice device and ConnectDER says their list price is $400 for the 60A version. It will be a relief when these come on line and more solar ready service panels are installed in new construction.
 

wbculley

Member
Location
weirton wvwork
PV Solar to AC GENERATOR TRANSFER SWITCH WHICH IS MAIN DISCONNECT

PV Solar to AC GENERATOR TRANSFER SWITCH WHICH IS MAIN DISCONNECT

I am inspecting a PV system protected by 40 Amp fuses at the AC disconnect for the PV system.The AC system has a 20kw Generac generator serving the whole home.The Transfer SW is now the main disconnect for the AC system and the old main panel is now a sub panel. The PV installer used listed insulated connectors to attach the PV to the line side of the transfer switch above the main breaker. The Utility wanted a 2 pole 40 amp breaker at the opposite end of the main panel as would normally be done. This is not possible in a transfer switch (main disconnect-no buss). PV installer
says their inverter would be damaged if backed from a generator.I think the way its done is OK. The AC disconnect for the PV system is clearly labeled and is about 24 inches from the generator transfer switch. Any help would be appreciated. wbculleysr@frontier.com If I'm not doing this right I apologize wbculleysr@frontier.com
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I am inspecting a PV system protected by 40 Amp fuses at the AC disconnect for the PV system.The AC system has a 20kw Generac generator serving the whole home.The Transfer SW is now the main disconnect for the AC system and the old main panel is now a sub panel. The PV installer used listed insulated connectors to attach the PV to the line side of the transfer switch above the main breaker. The Utility wanted a 2 pole 40 amp breaker at the opposite end of the main panel as would normally be done. This is not possible in a transfer switch (main disconnect-no buss). PV installer
says their inverter would be damaged if backed from a generator.I think the way its done is OK. The AC disconnect for the PV system is clearly labeled and is about 24 inches from the generator transfer switch. Any help ...

What you've described is absolutely fine under the NEC. The installer is correct that having the PV connected on the same side of the transfer switch as the generator would likely cause problems. The utility may or may not have any rights under your states laws to demand it be done differently, and there's no technical justification for them to do so in my opinion. Where I work they wouldn't and this would be passed.

(You probably shouldn't post your email address, this page is public and spammers will pick it up. You can ask people to send you a private message through the forum which will send you an email notification.)
 
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