PVC drain under the subpanel

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Roddick

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I am changing a subpanel (100Amps) at the basement.Basement has finished walls.Wall where panel is located has PVC drain pipe just under the panel inside of the wall.
Exactly 12" bellow the bottom of the panel.I didn't find in code book anything about the PVC under the panel.I have 4' clear space in front of the panel and nothing above.This job will be inspected by the village electrical inspector.
Will that be OK?Thanks.
 
Sounds like the pipe is in the dedicated equipment space which is the foot print of the panel.
 
110.26(E)(1) Indoor.
(A)Dedicated Electrical Space. The space equal to the width and depth of the equipment and extending from the floor to a height of 1.8 m (6 ft) above the equipment or to the structural ceiling, whichever is lower, shall be dedicated to the electrical installation. No piping, ducts, leak protection apparatus, or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation shall be located in this zone.

Rob G - Seattle
 
infinity said:
Sounds like the pipe is in the dedicated equipment space which is the foot print of the panel.
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I agree.

In a dwelling basement where it is very unlikely you would ever run any circuits from the panel to and beyond the floor, you may run into lenient inspectors, at least in an existing situation. New construction there were better opportunities to avoid such things and they may not be lenient at all.
 
infinity said:
So technically the wall and framing is also within dedicated space.
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Yes, that language, as written prohibits the installation of flush mounted panels. I know that is not what the intent is and it is never enforced that way, but it is what the code language says.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Yes, that language, as written prohibits the installation of flush mounted panels. I know that is not what the intent is and it is never enforced that way, but it is what the code language says.
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I agree wording in that section needs work and since the pipe is behind the wall I wouldn't give it a second thought.
 
marmathsen said:
Doesn't seem like framing would be prohibited to me
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Good point. It does mention equipment foreign to the electrical installation so how does the wall fit into that definition? If walls, framing and/or ceilings are not foreign equipment then why is an exception for the hung ceiling within the dedicated space?
 
marmathsen said:
equipment foreign to the electrical installation
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That term in 110.26(E)(1) is a contradiction in terms, since "equipment" is defined in Article 110 as (2017 NEC, emphasis mine):

"Equipment. A general term, including fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation."

So "equipment foreign to the electrical installation" is an empty set.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
That term in 110.26(E)(1) is a contradiction in terms, since "equipment" is defined in Article 110 as (2017 NEC, emphasis mine):

"Equipment. A general term, including fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation."

So "equipment foreign to the electrical installation" is an empty set.

Cheers, Wayne
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Or maybe it's just referring to electrical equipment from another country. I'm sure that's it.

Rob G - Seattle
 
What safety hazard would be created related to the pipe inside of wall within the panel zone?
Over head, leaks with or without pressurization and condensation will have a significant impact potential, even below the panel potential for leaking and pressurized pipe to cause problems. Seen even sewer pipe develop a lot of pressure from a standing column of liquids within the pipe during a blockage. (Guy I know was called in for a blocked sewer, went to remove the clean out and when he got it most of the way out there was enough pressure it blew the plug out of his hand and shot black water accross the basement about 20 ft. and all over him and his helper. He had a bucket under the pipe but it didn't help much.) Don't call me if the pipe had burst open and sprayed black water all over the panel location.
Gas pipe would say even bigger danger within an enclosed wall space above or below a panel if a leak develops, potential for explosive gas accumilation and penetration into the panel.
 
infinity said:
Good point. It does mention equipment foreign to the electrical installation so how does the wall fit into that definition? If walls, framing and/or ceilings are not foreign equipment then why is an exception for the hung ceiling within the dedicated space?
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The hung ceiling is not a structural item and therefore needs an exception to be allowed. A structural ceiling is where the dedicated space would end.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
So the top plate of the wall is not a structural item?
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The second sentence of 110.26(E)(1)(a) explicates what "dedicated to the electrical installation" means. It just means that "piping, ducts, leak protection apparatus" are excluded. Framing is not on that list, so framing may occupy the space "dedicated to the electrical installation."

Of course, that raises the question of why there's an Exception for "Suspend Ceilings," as they are clearly not "piping, ducts, leak protection apparatus." Presumably the answer lies in the error of 110.26(E)(1)(a)'s use of the word "equipment" to apparently attempt to refer to non-electrical apparatus, even though "equipment" is defined otherwise in Article 100.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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