Quad for CH type panel?

[jaggedben]

I have an old Cutler Hammer panelboard that I need to tie into that's full. These are the CH type breakers, tan handles, I believe it has the circular stabs. The label says "Cutler-Hammer 'safetybreaker'" Everything is full size breakers, no tandems.

My impression is that there are no quad or tandem breakers that can be legitimately used in this type of panel. Can people here confirm or deny?

Is it not possible to use BR breakers in this type of panelboard?

 

[jumper]

No, BR breakers will not fit CH breaker panels.

They do make tandem CH breakers.

Here is a twin 15A.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_43025-82364-CHNT1515_0__?productId=3033446

Never seen a quad CH, but IDK if available.

 

[jumper]

Eaton website does not show CH quads.

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...ndCircuitBreakers/CHCircuitBreakers/index.htm

 

[jaggedben]

They do make tandem CH breakers.

Here is a twin 15A.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_43025-82364-CHNT1515_0__?productId=3033446

Aha! Thank you, those will do the trick. Weirdly enough those do not appear in the Eaton catalog I found online.

No if I can just figure out how to get some wiring to this panel.. :slaphead:

 

[norcal]

Aha! Thank you, those will do the trick. Weirdly enough those do not appear in the Eaton catalog I found online.

No if I can just figure out how to get some wiring to this panel.. :slaphead:

But if the panel was not made / listed for twin breakers you cannot use them, if one is installed in a panel not made for them they connect in to the bus stab fine but flop around where they clip to the rail. Was going to post a photo of a interior of a CH panel that would accept twins but photobucket is down for "maintenance".

 

[John120/240]

Select a two pole breaker of sufficient ampacity & supply a sub panel. You gain how ever much space you need and you can choose whichever brand equipment you want.

 

[norcal]

Here is a photo of a C-H type CH interior that the lower 12 spaces are made to accept twin breakers. When C-H introduced a twin for those loadcenters I was very annoyed, as I dislike them.

 

[kwired]

No, BR breakers will not fit CH breaker panels.

They do make tandem CH breakers.

Here is a twin 15A.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_43025-82364-CHNT1515_0__?productId=3033446

Never seen a quad CH, but IDK if available.

The one you linked to is not class CTL - but you need to dig deeper into Eaton to find that information. Lowe's page you linked to also says that it requires 2 spaces - which is not correct. This one does not have rejection feature required for class CTL breakers and will fit in panels not designed to accept tandem/twin breakers.

 

[jaggedben]

Select a two pole breaker of sufficient ampacity & supply a sub panel. You gain how ever much space you need and you can choose whichever brand equipment you want.

Yes I know I can do that but I'm looking to avoid the additional work and expense. This panel is in a finished closet so the less hassle the better.

Here is a photo of a C-H type CH interior that the lower 12 spaces are made to accept twin breakers. When C-H introduced a twin for those loadcenters I was very annoyed, as I dislike them.

I'm not really seeing what identifies the lower spaces as accepting tandems. What am I missing?

Thanks for all the comments. I need to have another look at my pictures.

 

[kwired]

Yes I know I can do that but I'm looking to avoid the additional work and expense. This panel is in a finished closet so the less hassle the better.



I'm not really seeing what identifies the lower spaces as accepting tandems. What am I missing?

Thanks for all the comments. I need to have another look at my pictures.

Look carefully at the "foot rail" where the breakers mount, the bottom six on each side are shaped differently and tandem breakers not intended to mount on upper spaces will fit in those bottom spaces

You about need to see the breakers as well, but there is enough in that photo to see the mounting rail is different for the bottom spaces.

 

[jumper]

The one you linked to is not class CTL - but you need to dig deeper into Eaton to find that information. Lowe's page you linked to also says that it requires 2 spaces - which is not correct. This one does not have rejection feature required for class CTL breakers and will fit in panels not designed to accept tandem/twin breakers.

OP merely asked if they were made and I found them. Up to OP to figure out if they can be used.

Yeah I saw that Lowes typo. The Eaton site says a tandem only needs 1 spot.

 

[kwired]

OP merely asked if they were made and I found them. Up to OP to figure out if they can be used.

Yeah I saw that Lowes typo. The Eaton site says a tandem only needs 1 spot.

Well we can warn him of other issues or let him find out when his inspector rejects it - then he will be returning here asking why it was rejected.

If not inspected most probably buy the product linked to.

 

[jaggedben]

Look carefully at the "foot rail" where the breakers mount, the bottom six on each side are shaped differently and tandem breakers not intended to mount on upper spaces will fit in those bottom spaces

You about need to see the breakers as well, but there is enough in that photo to see the mounting rail is different for the bottom spaces.

Thanks I see it now. (Also helps to be on the computer this time instead of the phone.)

Unfortunately I've got nothing to go on in the photos, because the breakers are all covering that up (else I probably wouldn't be asking the question in the first place!). Will have to compare extra costs of a new sub with the cost of gambling wrong. :roll:

Well we can warn him of other issues or let him find out when his inspector rejects it - then he will be returning here asking why it was rejected.

If not inspected most probably buy the product linked to.

Oh, I wouldn't need you to explain why, but thanks anyway. FWIW, I have yet to run into an inspector who brought up CTL listings. I'd bet I know more about the subject than 90% of them, thanks to this forum.

 

[norcal]

Early C-H panel interiors did not have any tabs on the mounting rail, unlike the photo I posted just a straight rail, by removing one breaker it would be easy to verify what was there.

 

[kwired]

Early C-H panel interiors did not have any tabs on the mounting rail, unlike the photo I posted just a straight rail, by removing one breaker it would be easy to verify what was there.

Am not all that familiar with what was/is common in CH panels, but from experience with other panels, you don't always know which slots will accept a tandem so just pulling any random breaker out of a full panel will not necessarily tell you if you can install a tandem or where you can install them. The one pictured - only the bottom six slots on each side of panel. Some maybe the entire panel will accept them, others won't accept any at all. The label on the panel may help determine this, but not always. If you know and understand their catalog numbering system that may help some as well. Is a little common between brands to see something like 30-40 in the catalog number. That would typically mean the panel has 40 regular spaces but can supply 40 if utilizing tandems in every space that will accept them. One that has something like 20-40 in the catalog number has 20 regular spaces but can accept a tandem in every slot.

 

[jaggedben]

Am not all that familiar with what was/is common in CH panels, but from experience with other panels, you don't always know which slots will accept a tandem so just pulling any random breaker out of a full panel will not necessarily tell you if you can install a tandem or where you can install them. The one pictured - only the bottom six slots on each side of panel. Some maybe the entire panel will accept them, others won't accept any at all. The label on the panel may help determine this, but not always. If you know and understand their catalog numbering system that may help some as well. Is a little common between brands to see something like 30-40 in the catalog number. That would typically mean the panel has 40 regular spaces but can supply 40 if utilizing tandems in every space that will accept them. One that has something like 20-40 in the catalog number has 20 regular spaces but can accept a tandem in every slot.

In my experience on end-fed load centers if you pull a breaker out of the bottom slot, rather than a random breaker, that usually will tell you if the panel takes tandems. Some take them in all slots, some none, and some only a portion at the bottom, but never only a portion at the top. I have noticed a model of Murray center-fed meter/main combo that will not take tandems in a handful of slots at the top end, but that's the exception to the rule.

With that said, CH panels seem to be pretty different from many of the others.

 

[kwired]

In my experience on end-fed load centers if you pull a breaker out of the bottom slot, rather than a random breaker, that usually will tell you if the panel takes tandems. Some take them in all slots, some none, and some only a portion at the bottom, but never only a portion at the top. I have noticed a model of Murray center-fed meter/main combo that will not take tandems in a handful of slots at the top end, but that's the exception to the rule.

With that said, CH panels seem to be pretty different from many of the others.

Kind of my experience as well, if a panel will accept any tandems at all they will usually be at opposite end of the supply.

I won't say top or bottom because ever since they started making the main breakers with horizontal operating handle - most can have main at top or bottom. Main lug only panels typically have never had a specific top or bottom to them.

 

[norcal]

Up until around 20 years ago C-H loadcenters were full size breakers only, no twin/tandem breakers were made for them so there is a huge base out there that was never intended/ listed for twins, so unless the panel is marked to accept them doubt they should be used in one. I just looked at a subpanel in my utility room installed in 1994, & it was not configured for twins, not something to end all discussion but do remember that there were not a lot of C-H loadcenters that were OK for twins when they came out.

 

[kwired]

Up until around 20 years ago C-H loadcenters were full size breakers only, no twin/tandem breakers were made for them so there is a huge base out there that was never intended/ listed for twins, so unless the panel is marked to accept them doubt they should be used in one. I just looked at a subpanel in my utility room installed in 1994, & it was not configured for twins, not something to end all discussion but do remember that there were not a lot of C-H loadcenters that were OK for twins when they came out.

I kind of suspected that. When I first started in this trade the guy I worked for mostly installed CH panels at that time, I never saw a tandem type breaker, ever, until around 20 years ago, but I wasn't all that familiar with CH anymore at that time so wasn't sure if it were something new or that I just had never seen one.

 

[jaggedben]

Okay here's pictures of the panel and label, just in case anyone sees an additional clue. Shot in the dark, probably. Just thought it might be worth a try.

I've not been back to the site since the previous posts. However I confirmed with the guy who was there that behind the panel is the outside wall of the house, so that will make adding a new sub outside feasible.