Question for Inspectors

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neonjoe

Member
Location
Kentucky
Our company installs a lot of UL listed signs. They're generally manufactured out of town, shipped to us, and we install them, sometimes for an out of town sign company, sometimes for the end user. We inspect the signs before we install and if we see an infraction of UL48 (Electric signs), we record, take pics, repair, and back charge. If the infractions are numerous and unsafe, we call our local UL rep and have her take a look at it. Though we are a UL shop, I never thought of it until just this moment, if we're tinkering with another UL shop's listed product, even though we're correcting, are we in violation?

Anyway, that's not my main question. We also service listed signs that we didn't install, and I've seen some that were more non-compliant than compliant. A couple inspectors in our area record the UL #, check our field hookup, and green tag the project, without as much as a cursory look at the sign itself. My question is, how do you inspectors treat custom made listed equipment? Do you "open them up"?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I am not an inspector, I have not seen an inspector give more than a quick look at signs.

Usually they are just making sure I put a disconect in place if it did not have one.

As I understand the UL listing process the whole point is that a UL tag tells the inspector that the item does not need inspecting in the field.

Here is some info from the NEC.

90.7 Examination of Equipment for Safety.

For specific items of equipment and materials referred to in this Code, examinations for safety made under standard conditions provide a basis for approval where the record is made generally available through promulgation by organizations properly equipped and qualified for experimental testing, inspections of the run of goods at factories, and service-value determination through field inspections. This avoids the necessity for repetition of examinations by different examiners, frequently with inadequate facilities for such work, and the confusion that would result from conflicting reports on the suitability of devices and materials examined for a given purpose.

It is the intent of this Code that factory-installed internal wiring or the construction of equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory that is recognized as having the facilities described in the preceding paragraph and that requires suitability for installation in accordance with this Code.
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
I agree with Bob

In my area most inspectors are part time and and the underground, sign disconnect and general wiring methode are generally the focus of the installation. I check to ensure the sign is UL listed of course. I have more of an issue with the sign company doing the install when the company does not employ licensed electricians.

Charlie
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
I agree with Bob and Charlie. There are occassions where something just doesn't look right with the sign itself and little more investigation needs to be made. But this only on a case by case issue, not in general.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
It sounds like you should blow a whistle, for the public's sake.

Either you're wrong and are misjudging the situation (which I doubt), and need correction; or they're wrong, unclear on (or indifferent to) the standard that these items are listed to, and need correction.

If they are not to the UL standard, they should not have the authority to UL-stamp their products, and the UL would probably appreciate the heads up.

But I know next to nothing about this aspect of the industry.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
UL allows a lot of things in factory assemblies that are not allowed in an installation according to the NEC.

They are two separate entities with different rules that apply.

The same thing happens with machines. A lot of people try to take the NEC and apply it to a machine. Some have never even heard of NFPA79. It is almost a lost cause to try and educate those kind of people.

The way it works is that everything inside a sign, or a machine, or basically any other piece of factory assembled equipment is not subject to the NEC, with very rare exceptions. It is just not an equipment design spec. It is an installation code.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Question for inspectors

Question for inspectors

Not every UL listed item is mass produced... so, in place of testing samples, UL has a rpogram that certifies sign and panel shops. These shops are trusted to apply the appropriate UL standards properly, under the supervision of UL's "Follow-Up Service."

A panel, or sign, made in one of these shops is considered as an appliance; most NEC rules stop at the appliance. In place of the NEC, specific UL standards apply.

If your shop is getting non-compliant items from another UL shop, then it is proper to bring this to the attention of UL.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
renosteinke said:
Not every UL listed item is mass produced... so, in place of testing samples, UL has a rpogram that certifies sign and panel shops. These shops are trusted to apply the appropriate UL standards properly, under the supervision of UL's "Follow-Up Service."

A panel, or sign, made in one of these shops is considered as an appliance; most NEC rules stop at the appliance. In place of the NEC, specific UL standards apply.

If your shop is getting non-compliant items from another UL shop, then it is proper to bring this to the attention of UL.

I am not familiar with any of the UL shop programs other then UL508a. But they watch us pretty closely and when they inspect stuff they do a pretty thorough job. We get gigged now and then, usually for violations involving labeling, or because the drawings don't cover something UL thinks they should. Responding to the reports takes up management time so it is generally a lot easier to just do it right in the first place.

I have a hard time believing the sign companies are sneaking all that much past UL.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
Joe,
You can modify a listed product. You could probably put your label on it. Possibly a rebuilt electric sign label if your agreement covers that category. Best option is to do a field report to your UL inspector.

There are two basic types of Listed Electric Signs. Self-Contained and Section Signs.

Self-Contained signs require the field wiring to be inspected. You will sometimes see as someone mentioned, some wierd looking stuff. Glass electrode receptacles with an exposed wiring post inside the cabinet and GTO run all over the place. Water can easily get into the cabinet through the electrode receptacle. That's OK because we have drain holes (req'd by UL in the bottom of the sign). What they typically fail to do is support the GTO in the cabinet. Grounds for a field report but I typically don't say anything, unless it's really bad.

Section Signs are the channel letter signs you commonly see. Just letters on the outside of the wall, the XFMR and connecting wiring are behind the wall. If the letters are large enough, each letter may be a self contained sign. All that is shipped is supposed to be a bunch of parts and it's up to the installed to connect it all together or in a word install it. So all the wiring needs to be inspected as well as mounting of compenents in the letters. First you need the installation instructions. 99% of the time they are not furnished. 99% of the time the installer has no idea what proper installation instructions look like. Some like to furnish bogus instructions. The list of violations I see is endless.

UL 48 is a "cookbook" standard. There are certain items that need to be addressed in manufacturing that allows them the freedom to make just about any sign. Every sign is custom. The fact that is is custom is not normally a barrier to produce a listed product.

The follow up at the shop is typically quarterly. It depends on vlome of manufacturing. I have to conclude that the UL inspector never ask for installation instructions at the shop, because hardly anyone can ever produce them. I have so much experience in looking at sign installs with UL inspectors, I don't need instructions. Most installers usually do what you want. Not a good way to go, but it saves everybody time.

In my years doing this I have turned in more than my share of field reports to UL regsarding signs. It seems to make a difference in the local industry for a while, then things drift back staus quo. Anybody can be a UL shop. Sign the agreement and order your labels.

We do more than a cursury overview of signs. This is especially true of the channel letter type because these have the potential to start fires more than the others. We go on the roof or in the attic to lookat the wiring. If you look at a channel letter sign and rely on the label, you are taking a chance. Not so much these days though with the advent of the GFP XFMR. If everything is properly bonded, it should trip out if the secondary arcs to the metal of the enclosure of raceway. Still if you can get 15kV arcing and sustain it and there is combustibles near, you will have a fire.

A lot of installers have complaints about the GFP transformers. Tripping out where the old non-GFP type would not. I would not put it past some installers to replace with old style XFMRS or somehow defeat the GFP. Defeating it would be hard as it appears to be all encapsulated.

Neon has always held some mystery for inspectors. Sign installers have taken advantage of this and done everything including outright lie to inspectors about the right way to do things.

If there was one thing that all inspectors could do to improve things it would be to get installation instructons and hold the installer to them.

Sorry this went a little long
 

neonjoe

Member
Location
Kentucky
First, I want to thank all of you for your replies. Very helpful and enlightening. I'd also like to comment on some of them.

In my area, as I may have mentioned, the relationship between inspectors and sign companies is relatively new. I believe my first inspection was in the early 80's. NRTL listing was not required until the late 80's. It's true that a listed sign means that only field wiring should need inspecting. It's also true that an awful lot of listed custom neon signs are never seen by a UL inspector, and, as Larry said, "Neon has always held some mystery for inspectors. Sign installers have taken advantage of this...." I've had my share of inspectors confess to a job being his first neon inspection. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine most inspectors are electricians, and most electricians are not real familiar with NEC 600, UL48, and the foreign looking equipment and accessories in a neon job.) It's true that not all UL companies will roll the dice on whether the UL inspector is going to show up for a spot inspection, and not all installers will take advantage of an inspector who may not be up to snuff on a neon installation. "I have a hard time believing the sign companies are sneaking all that much past UL." And, "Anybody can be a UL shop. Sign the agreement and order your labels." Send the check, I might add. For these reasons, it's my view that these signs should be inspected a little more closely by field inspectors, at least until they're satisfied that the contractors and fabricators in their area are aware that, odds are, corner cutting and the like are not going to go unnoticed, and at the same time the inspectors are educating themselves on the machinations of neon systems.

"It sounds like you should blow a whistle, for the public's sake." I did, on a particular service call, take pics, record infractions, inform the owner of my safety concerns, and email both the pics and my records to UL. I know the owner did nothing. I never heard from UL. I wasn't aware that there is a proper procedure to follow, and I may not have followed it.

"If you (the inspector) look at a channel letter sign and rely on the label, you are taking a chance. " I realize most inspectors already have a full plate at the beginning of each day. But taking a little more time is better than taking that chance, IMO.

On a side note in response to something Larry said, "A lot of installers have complaints about the GFP transformers. Tripping out where the old non-GFP type would not. I would not put it past some installers to replace with old style XFMRS or somehow defeat the GFP. Defeating it would be hard as it appears to be all encapsulated." While not being a thing of the past, spurious
tripping of the SGFP is at an acceptable low level; that is, if the installers realize that a little more care, and sometimes different procedures, than what was once necessary must be taken when wiring these types of transformers. Finding the old style (not made for use in the USA, Canada, or most Euro countries), I think, would be harder than wiring the system correctly in the first place.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
Joe
I wish you installed in my area.
You are right not every installer and contractor is a loser. Unfortunately the losers outnumber the winners. Losers is probably an unfair term. A lot of installers just don't know what is right. They are "educated" by people who don't know or possibly don't care.

Years ago we had a few fires from neon signs. We became more vigilant after that.

One was from an install that I inspected. Apparently the glass inside a PK was craked somehow and the circuit arced to the metal housing. It is impossible to know if a PK is done corectly without dismantleing it. Even if we did, we would have only spot checked them, so this probably would slipped by anyway.

I like that "send in the check"

One of the problems installers have is not knowing what an inspector wants or expects. It varies widely from city to city. We endeavor to go strictly by NEC and UL with nothing made up. Other cites insist on things like primary fuses on all transformers. They are permitted but not required.

If old transformers are hard to find then that is good. I agree with your solution, but some guys see it that way. If they had one with them on a service call, I'm sure they woiuld put it in rather than rewire the whole thing. Not all installers, just some.

On another note, have you seen much LED being used? We don't see too much. It seems to work good for small stroke letters, where you can't get proper clearances. I've seen it used as outline lighting also.
 

neonjoe

Member
Location
Kentucky
"You are right not every installer and contractor is a loser. Unfortunately the losers outnumber the winners. Losers is probably an unfair term. A lot of installers just don't know what is right. They are "educated" by people who don't know or possibly don't care."

I wish I could disagree with you, Larry, but the sad truth is that a lot of sign installers and service techs are "educated" by people who don't know because they don't care.

Because there is no formal education program in my industry, I've always relied on those with more experience, and now sites like this forum, to further my education. After almost 50 years in the trade (started as a kid in my Dad's neon shop), I'm still learning. Most kids in my trade "know it all" after just a couple years. The proof is in the puddin'. How many sign guys would be able to produce their code book if you asked them to? My present employer was relying on the '99 issue before I started in Jan. of this year. How many sign guys visit this forum? My guess is less than a handful, if that many. But I know of at least 200 sign guys who have, since Apr. 2006, been informed of the existence of Mike Holt's Code Forum. They either "know it all" already or they don't care.

"On another note, have you seen much LED being used? We don't see too much. It seems to work good for small stroke letters, where you can't get proper clearances. I've seen it used as outline lighting also."

If you don't mind, I'd like to start another thread to address the LED issue.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
neonjoe If you don't mind said:
Ok, that's great.

On the other hand, I have run into some knowledgable installers such as yourself. People who really want to do it right, and not just get it signed off.

I have been mistaken on some things and humbly backed off and was educated. Either they showed it to me in the NEC or were backed up by listing info.

Installers or electricians who are willing to do that have my respect no matter who ends up being right.
 
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