Question on Service Change or upgrade.

[growler]

How many of you work in jurisdictions where they require you to install hard wired smoke detectors if you do a service change or upgrade?

It's getting so all the local jurisdictions are now requireing the smokes when doing a service change.

Makes me wonder if this is just a local thing or if this requirement is common in many other areas.

 

[construct]

If the jurisdiction has adopted the International Residential Code, section R314.3.1 says "When alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings, it shall be equipped with smoke alarms as required for new dwellings."

IMHO I think it's a stretch to call a service upgrade an "alteration or repair". If new branch circuits are being installed, that's a different story.

 

[Coppersmith]

I work in three counties in west central Florida. We do not have this requirement.

 

[GerryB]

How many of you work in jurisdictions where they require you to install hard wired smoke detectors if you do a service change or upgrade?

It's getting so all the local jurisdictions are now requireing the smokes when doing a service change.

Makes me wonder if this is just a local thing or if this requirement is common in many other areas.

One city around here tried that years ago but it wasn't for long. Pretty ridiculous if you think about it. The smoke detector job could take longer then the service. They will often require smokes anywhere you open a wall or ceiling and can fish them in, and on a lot of remodels they will require battery smoke detectors in the other areas that were not opened, which the gc or the homeowner can do themselves.

 

[James L]

Lenexa, Kansas (Johnson County)
Roeland Park, Kansas (also Jo. Co.)
Kansas City, Kansas Wyandotte County)

All require smoke detectors to most recent specs when any electrical permit is pulled. There are a few other cities in Johnson County which are very strict, but I'm not sure how many others are requiring them with every electrical permit

Prairie Village, Kansas (Jo.Co.) requires smoke detectors up to most recent specs when any residential permit is pulled - even if the permit is not related to electrical work.
If you build a deck, you have to add smoke detectors
If you have your water heater changed, you have to add smoke detectors.

That's what I've been told by the inspector there

 

[growler]

One city around here tried that years ago but it wasn't for long. Pretty ridiculous if you think about it.

It's been going on in some jurisdictions here for years. Mostly city or town jurisdictions. But it seems to be spreading to certain counties.

I just wondered if this is happening in other areas of the country. I wouldn't think it would be all that popular. Not with the customers paying for it.

 

[growler]

Lenexa, Kansas (Johnson County)
Roeland Park, Kansas (also Jo. Co.)
Kansas City, Kansas Wyandotte County)

All require smoke detectors to most recent specs when any electrical permit is pulled. There are a few other cities in Johnson County which are very strict, but I'm not sure how many others are requiring them with every electrical permit

Prairie Village, Kansas (Jo.Co.) requires smoke detectors up to most recent specs when any residential permit is pulled - even if the permit is not related to electrical work.
If you build a deck, you have to add smoke detectors
If you have your water heater changed, you have to add smoke detectors.

That's what I've been told by the inspector there

Sometimes I think that my little dog Toto and I have crossed over the rainbow and I'm in some really weird dimention and I have to get back to Kansas.

Now you tell me that even if I get back to Kanas I'm screwed.

I wish I had asked the Wizard for more brains. Or maybe just a lump sum of cash.

Darn that really is strict.

 

[mkgrady]

Not required round these here parts

 

[nizak]

Here in Central Michigan it's a hit and miss deal?

Some inspectors enforce it, some don't.

Makes it very difficult to bid residential work because you never know.

Calling the AHJ ahead of time and asking is a PITA as far as Im concerned.Getting a return call in a timely manner from them almost never happens.

 

[James L]

Here in Central Michigan it's a hit and miss deal?

Some inspectors enforce it, some don't.

Makes it very difficult to bid residential work because you never know.

Calling the AHJ ahead of time and asking is a PITA as far as Im concerned.Getting a return call in a timely manner from them almost never happens.

Hard to hit a moving target, ain't it?

I know calling to ask can be frustrating, but I'm making that call if I don't know.

 

[Little Bill]

Any time that an electrical permit (except temp service and a few others) is pulled we have to add smokes if there aren't any or not enough. But they can be battery operated. Only time hardwired is required on an existing house is if walls and ceilings are opened up.

 

[GerryB]

Any time that an electrical permit (except temp service and a few others) is pulled we have to add smokes if there aren't any or not enough. But they can be battery operated. Only time hardwired is required on an existing house is if walls and ceilings are opened up.

That is the key question. Just like any other code requirement that was not in effect at the time of building. You can't make a homeowner do an extensive job like hard wired smoke detectors. I have seen it required for special programs and loans, like HUD loans.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Any time that an electrical permit (except temp service and a few others) is pulled we have to add smokes if there aren't any or not enough. But they can be battery operated. Only time hardwired is required on an existing house is if walls and ceilings are opened up.

Interesting because it isn't an electrical code. Here, if a building permit is pulled then we have to upgrade to smokes and carbon detectors but they can be battery operated unless ceilings or walls are opened up.

 

[James L]

That is the key question. Just like any other code requirement that was not in effect at the time of building. You can't make a homeowner do an extensive job like hard wired smoke detectors. I have seen it required for special programs and loans, like HUD loans.

That all depends on where you're located and how you look at it.

Technically, they're not making anyone do anything. if you don't want to do the smoke detectors, that's ok -
you just won't be doing the service upgrade either.

Of the four municipalities I mentioned, only one is fine with a completely wireless system, as far as I know. two of them require at least a hardwired master unit and the rest can be wireless. And one will only accept wireless units in inaccessible areas.

 

[growler]

Interesting because it isn't an electrical code. Here, if a building permit is pulled then we have to upgrade to smokes and carbon detectors but they can be battery operated unless ceilings or walls are opened up.

Here an electrical permit for a major installation such as a service upgrade can trigger the requirement for hard wired smokes.

I think I can still get a permit to install an electric water heater without smoke detectors but what about six months from now.

Also if power is off over 6 month in some areas and 12 months in others this triggers a need for a power on safety inspection ( before POCO will reconnect) and this requires that smoke detectors need to be installed. Aslo you have to bring the ground sytems up to current code and any needed GFCIs which will require arc fault protection if added.

It just kind of goes on and on and this is very hard to explain to many customers.

 

[goldstar]

Any time that an electrical permit (except temp service and a few others) is pulled we have to add smokes if there aren't any or not enough. But they can be battery operated. Only time hardwired is required on an existing house is if walls and ceilings are opened up.

We are not required to add smoke alarms for a service upgrade here in NJ. However, if there is an addition or renovation, depending on the amount of square footage that is being affected, they may require smoke alarms. If it's a small remodel or addition (I believe it's less than 20% of the square footage of the largest floor in the residence) they will require battery operated smoke and/or carbon monoxide alarms. When you stop and think about it, it could be a severe hardship in many cases to ask a HO to install hard wired smoke alarms and tear open walls and ceilings if the areas affected aren't being renovated or added to.

 

[GerryB]

Here an electrical permit for a major installation such as a service upgrade can trigger the requirement for hard wired smokes.

I think I can still get a permit to install an electric water heater without smoke detectors but what about six months from now.

Also if power is off over 6 month in some areas and 12 months in others this triggers a need for a power on safety inspection ( before POCO will reconnect) and this requires that smoke detectors need to be installed. Aslo you have to bring the ground sytems up to current code and any needed GFCIs which will require arc fault protection if added.

It just kind of goes on and on and this is very hard to explain to many customers.

It is interesting to see how different areas of the country are. Are you talking about the whole state of Georgia or some municipalities? We have a similar POCO rule but all they are looking for is a release from the inspector. They could care less about smoke detectors or anything else really, they are just trying to cover themselves and make the electrician responsible. Most towns will ask you to check for safety and bring the grounding up to code but that is usually it.

 

[growler]

Are you talking about the whole state of Georgia or some municipalities? We have a similar POCO rule but all they are looking for is a release from the inspector.

I'm only familiar with the Metro Atlanta areas and that's big enough.

I doubt if it's the whole state but then agian I have not pulls permits in those areas.

 

[readydave8]

Have not been required to add smoke alarms here when changing out service, Habersham County mostly

Rabun County no inspections after health department approves septic tank

Stephens County until recently, and possibly still, no inspections

 

[Little Bill]

Our entire state's enforcement of the NEC is ran under the State Fire Marshall's office. So that's why we have to make sure either that the smokes are there or are added before inspection. And as I said, we don't have to hardwire them, battery operated is fine with the exceptions of new dwellings or gutted walls/ceilings.