question

[wwlyons]

short story, the equipment would not start seemed to be a communication problem I turn off the main 480 volt 30 amp disconnect for the entire control cabinet 8' tall 6' wide two door with through the door disconnect switch, I open the door about 10" glance at the communication Led on the router for the PLC close the door never breaking the plain of the door, without wearing a face shield, this action cost me my employment with that company one year ago today. it was stated I did not follow NFPA 70 E. what I am looking for is the article/section/paragraph/page number where this is covered in the 2012 copy,

 

[JFletcher]

short story, the equipment would not start seemed to be a communication problem I turn off the main 480 volt 30 amp disconnect for the entire control cabinet 8' tall 6' wide two door with through the door disconnect switch, I open the door about 10" glance at the communication Led on the router for the PLC close the door never breaking the plain of the door, without wearing a face shield, this action cost me my employment with that company one year ago today. it was stated I did not follow NFPA 70 E. what I am looking for is the article/section/paragraph/page number where this is covered in the 2012 copy,

welcome to the forum. I dont have the reference you cite, tho you can get the 2012 NFPA 70e book used from Amazon for $10 (and up). You were fired for a first offense safety violation that did not cause injury or damage? :huh: Or is there more in the "long story"?

 

[wwlyons]

no more in the long story, City/ state was Chattanooga, Tenn... Yes I was let go, not only was this my only offence, I had straight across the board 5 solid years of perfect reviews with max Raise amounts, This company dose not really discipline, they terminate, I was the control system specialist for "B" shift
I knew it, they know i knew it, I got caught, we were down between shifts (2 hr window) doing some work, and was restarting the sorter, the supervisor that seen me couldn't wait to get to HR, in this case Most guys would have just overlooked it, but he was New to our site. But it is done I moved on. in our field, right now there are plenty of jobs at least in my area (North Georgia) in the 20 years I have been working this is the only tine I have ever been Fired..

 

[Timbert]

First, I will assume you are a qualified electrical worker as defined by your company.

You don't mention the specifics of the company policy. I've seen interpretations that would require arc-flash gear for plugging in a PC. In which case, company policy trumps 70e if it is more restrictive.

Just because you turned off the 480V breaker you cannot assume that the 480 volts supply is off until it has been measured and verified.

The two factors we need to consider are shock and arc flash.

The panel has to be assumed to have 480 Volts on it. The restricted approach boundary is 1 ft. (0.3m). Section 130.7(C)1 states that you need to wear PPE when you are within the restricted approach boundary. You may or may not have violated the restricted approach boundary when it comes to shock protection.

You don't mention a specific arc-flash analysis for the equipment in question. Going by Table 130.7(c)(15)(a) for Other Equipment rated >240V up to 600V the potential arc flash boundary is 30 in. The work you were doing would be classified as: 'Other non-contact inspections outside the restricted approach boundary'. This type of inspection requires Hazard / Risk Category 1 PPE. The PPE is defined in Table 130.7(c)(16) which includes an arc-rated face shield.

So, I would conclude you were in violation of 130.7 as specified above.

I do wonder about a company policy that makes such an offense grave enough for a termination on a first violation. I would wager if they truly followed that, there would be no one left working there after about a week. Not to mention I imagine the company is also in violation of one or more of the finer points in 70e if given a close enough look.

You can view the full text at nfpa.org by signing up for a free account.

 

[wwlyons]

Yes this company dose indeed Terminate on First offence for 3 company policy infractions #1 is LOTO, #2 NFPA 70 E and #3 is any violation of fall hazard, all are first offence Termination events. and I bet you shop with them everyday (online) But I am not aloud to say their name, but I could probably talk about this big river in south America...
honestly it wasnt the first time I or any other Electrician had opened without full dress PPE on, I was the first to get caught by a tattle tale manager, and it was 100% my fault.. I knew company policy... I was just wondering about what the book said, I did at one time have the picture of the sticker seems that 3" was the prohibited and 12" was restricted I was wearing a 4 cal shirt and pants and glasses but I had no Gloves or face shield on, (if I would have been wearing the face shield, it might have saved my job)

 

[Timbert]

I see this as a perfect example of why zero tolerance is a horrible policy. It treats peeking in a low-voltage cabinet with it turned off the same as opening a medium voltage MCC which is live. For good or bad, it takes the decision out of the hands of the technician or management to decide what is bad practice and what is a serious hazard. Still being that inflexible is generally a bad thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if OSHA had seen what you did that OSHA would consider it a de minimis violation. De minimis violations are so minor they have no citations, no penalties, and no abatement dates. You broke the rule, but you may very well have put yourself at less risk because you didn't enter the restricted approach boundary to use a meter. If something is going to shock you or cause an arc flash it is much more probable when you are touching something that merely looking at it.

Technically the company appeared to have violated 105.3 because since you didn't know where to find this information they failed to adequately train you, which is the responsibility of employer.

I'm sorry this happened to you. I'm glad I work somewhere that safety personnel are there to guide you and keep you safe rather than play cop to find violations and penalize. To get terminated here you would have to do something egregious. They have let people go for safety reasons but it was for multiple repeated violations. If you had done that here about the extent of it would have been a reminder that "you shouldn't do that" or "don't do that on high power equipment."

 

[petersonra]

You knew their rule, and you knew the consequences of violating their rule, yet you deliberately violated their rule. What did you expect they would do? Make an exception just for you?

However it does seem harsh for a first offense.

 

[Saturn_Europa]

Does seem pretty extreme. Bad way to end 5 years of employment. I'm sorry that happened.

I'm pretty sure I've heard of that company before. I've also read about their poor treatment of employees. Un air conditioned shipping centers that ems would stage at during hot weather. Hour long security checks, off the clock. Ect.

 

[JFletcher]

Face shields are only required for category 2 arc flash hazards. Cat 1 requires glasses/goggles, cat3 and 4, suits.

I asked about the situation because the industry I used to work for would warn you for 1st time violations (that were caught) that didnt result in injury or property damage, or give you time w/o pay for events that did. Second+ offenses w/o injury/property damage, time off w/o pay. if someone got hurt (or nearly so did), they'd generally transfer you somewhere else.

Cabinets like the OP described are usually plastered with warning labels like "WARNING!: multiple sources of power, blah blah....". If you were suited up but didnt have your faceshield on or down, and got fired, I know it sucks, but they did you a favor. Or maybe "they" have seen this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGeliVe4nFs

where the only thing that saved that guy's eyes was that he flipped his faceshield down before throwing a breaker.

Your profile says you've been doing this 20 years. You should know (or should have been properly trained) that you cannot open energized gear 'to take a peek'. Personally, I think you got a raw deal, however you WILL find a better job. That South American river is full of crap and piranha and candiru; you dont need that. Go fishing in better waters.

 

[Timbert]

Face shields are only required for category 2 arc flash hazards. Cat 1 requires glasses/goggles, cat3 and 4, suits.

Could you cite a source for this?

My copies of 70e both 2012 and 2015 in Table 130.7(C)(16) clearly state "Arc-rated face shield [with or arc flash suit hood [minimum arc Rating of 4 cal/cm^2]."

Don't be confused because in the 2012 edition the table breaks between 'arc-flash rated clothing' for HRC1 and 'protective clothing', because both sections are required.

 

[kwired]

Send them a thank you note.

Good grief we all make mistakes sometimes. Obviously their interest is so focused on the bottom line they don't look at the whole picture.

Keeping experienced people is usually going to be better for the bottom line then constantly having to train new people. Some sort of penalty maybe is justifiable, but not that severe of a penalty. When they figure out that policy doesn't work will they move on to execution as a penalty? Then there is the whistle blower that reported you - but he needs to be careful, someday the sword may swing the other direction.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Does seem pretty extreme. Bad way to end 5 years of employment. I'm sorry that happened.

I'm pretty sure I've heard of that company before. I've also read about their poor treatment of employees. Un air conditioned shipping centers that ems would stage at during hot weather. Hour long security checks, off the clock. Ect.

big rivers in south america have deep pockets.
they stay full by not paying claims for injuries.
most of the draconian things proscribed for people
bending rules are due to the fact that a negligence
suit can cost a couple million dollars with legal costs
factored in, and replacing a sparky costs very little.

and, if they don't enforce the rules, and there is an
accident, plaintiffs council will try very hard to establish
negligence. punitive damages were limited a long while
ago in most places, but they still give corporate council
the willies.

 

[wwlyons]

Face shields are only required for category 2 arc flash hazards. Cat 1 requires glasses/goggles, cat3 and 4, suits.

I asked about the situation because the industry I used to work for would warn you for 1st time violations (that were caught) that didnt result in injury or property damage, or give you time w/o pay for events that did. Second+ offenses w/o injury/property damage, time off w/o pay. if someone got hurt (or nearly so did), they'd generally transfer you somewhere else.

Cabinets like the OP described are usually plastered with warning labels like "WARNING!: multiple sources of power, blah blah....". If you were suited up but didnt have your faceshield on or down, and got fired, I know it sucks, but they did you a favor. Or maybe "they" have seen this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGeliVe4nFs

where the only thing that saved that guy's eyes was that he flipped his faceshield down before throwing a breaker.

Your profile says you've been doing this 20 years. You should know (or should have been properly trained) that you cannot open energized gear 'to take a peek'. Personally, I think you got a raw deal, however you WILL find a better job. That South American river is full of crap and piranha and candiru; you dont need that. Go fishing in better waters.

It was not energized and was LOTO but their company policy reads any voltage over 49v it to be considered live until tested "Live, dead, live" with a cat 3 or better meter I was looking at an SEW comm module that at one time was on a 24V UPS and would drop comms when the power was shut down,

all of us had done this at one time. and before the module was removed from the ups we would quickly hit the reset button close the doors and turn on the power before the module booted up... I do miss working with the people I had built relationships with over the 5 years, I stay in contact with them but it isnt the same, I seen them more than I seen my Family working 10 - 12 hours a day 6 days a week. it has been over a year and i could reapply but I just cant bring myself to because of how i was treated, rather than a reprimand for this it was termination, besides I earn several more dollars per hour at my current employer, (who really dosnt have a real NFPA 70E program at all)

 

[dionysius]

It was not energized and was LOTO but their company policy reads any voltage over 49v it to be considered live until tested "Live, dead, live" with a cat 3 or better meter I was looking at an SEW comm module that at one time was on a 24V UPS and would drop comms when the power was shut down,

all of us had done this at one time. and before the module was removed from the ups we would quickly hit the reset button close the doors and turn on the power before the module booted up... I do miss working with the people I had built relationships with over the 5 years, I stay in contact with them but it isnt the same, I seen them more than I seen my Family working 10 - 12 hours a day 6 days a week. it has been over a year and i could reapply but I just cant bring myself to because of how i was treated, rather than a reprimand for this it was termination, besides I earn several more dollars per hour at my current employer, (who really dosnt have a real NFPA 70E program at all)

I am amazed and unsure if I understand the situation. Were you simply opening the door of a Switchboard or Panelboard to shut down a breaker??? In the short time the Supv was at this company did any political rhetoric or interplay of any sort happen with you or others???? Did he simply try to make you into some sacrificial lamb for some reason e.g. to prove to his bosses that he has balls???? Do you know anything about him outside of work (married, drink, kids, super religious) so we can see some of his character traits. This is much more about him that you but you are the one who had to pay. Based on what you have stated I feel you were wronged. Was he hired to "turn the ship around" because there had been some major infractions???? Is the guy compos mentis in your opinion??? What age is he and what experience in managing people has he????

 

[JFletcher]

Could you cite a source for this?

My copies of 70e both 2012 and 2015 in Table 130.7(C)(16) clearly state "Arc-rated face shield [with or arc flash suit hood [minimum arc Rating of 4 cal/cm^2]."

Don't be confused because in the 2012 edition the table breaks between 'arc-flash rated clothing' for HRC1 and 'protective clothing', because both sections are required.

http://www.safetypartnersltd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/PPE-Chart.jpg

Tho the chart I saw at the time of my post did not show a faceshield for Cat 1 AF hazard. I see I am in err, and/or possibly misread my source.

 

[dionysius]

short story, the equipment would not start seemed to be a communication problem I turn off the main 480 volt 30 amp disconnect for the entire control cabinet 8' tall 6' wide two door with through the door disconnect switch, I open the door about 10" glance at the communication Led on the router for the PLC close the door never breaking the plain of the door, without wearing a face shield, this action cost me my employment with that company one year ago today. it was stated I did not follow NFPA 70 E. what I am looking for is the article/section/paragraph/page number where this is covered in the 2012 copy,

To the OP. Can you use this table to indicate the transgression or was it just a company rule with the >49v which was not obeyed??? Also would appreciate your answer to my previous q if you have the time....
http://www.macronsafety.com/pdf/electrical-safety-compliance-chart.pdf

 

[wwlyons]

I am amazed and unsure if I understand the situation. Were you simply opening the door of a Switchboard or Panelboard to shut down a breaker??? In the short time the Supv was at this company did any political rhetoric or interplay of any sort happen with you or others???? Did he simply try to make you into some sacrificial lamb for some reason e.g. to prove to his bosses that he has balls???? Do you know anything about him outside of work (married, drink, kids, super religious) so we can see some of his character traits. This is much more about him that you but you are the one who had to pay. Based on what you have stated I feel you were wronged. Was he hired to "turn the ship around" because there had been some major infractions???? Is the guy compos mentis in your opinion??? What age is he and what experience in managing people has he????

I opened a control Cabinet for a piece of equipment what I needed to do was look at a small communication module that interfaces between a control logics PLC and an SEW [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]EURODRIVE control system, the new supervisor had been with the company several years, he had just transferred From the west coast. pretty sure he was wanting to make a name for himself, otherwise a "NORMAL" person would have Just written me up or just given me a ass chewing, seeing it was my first offence for ANYTHING, he was well aware that involving HR would result in my termination, [/FONT]

 

[Jraef]

NFPA 70E is not a law, it is a "suggestion" of a good program for an employer to follow in order to provide a safe workplace with regard to electrical hazards. So basically it doesn't matter one iota what rule you think you did or did not violate in 70E, the ONLY rules you needed to follow were the COMPANY rules. Draconian or not, YOU knew what they were and YOU chose to interpret them to suit the situation.

So why might they be draconian? Because IF there WERE an accident, and OSHA came in to investigate, the first thing they will do is look at the POLICY. If that policy follows 70E it's a little easier on everyone involved, but that's the only real value. They are STILL responsible for maintaining a safe workplace, and how they get there is their business. So if they tell OSHA 'Well, we have this policy, he didn't follow it, but we let it slide..." then THEY are not only financially responsible, but possibly CRIMINALLY responsible by "allowing" you to violate the policy. I attended a seminar on this very subject put on by an ex OSHA investigator and he cited numerous cases all across the country where OSHA is going after supervisors and management with criminal prosecution for just this sort of thing. OSHA wants to make examples of employers who are lax on this issue, so a high profile employer with a known reported history of issues with worker protection is a VERY likely target for them. I can imagine their zero tolerance policy is a direct result of their safety organization knowing this.

If it were me and I could make more money by coming back, I would say that I learned my lesson, suck it up and return. Quit bellyaching about it and understand that "leniency" is dangerous for them almost as much as sloppiness is dangerous for you.

Then when you get back, talk to Engineering and state your case for a safety improvement in that system wherein you can put that device in a safer area or provide a clear window to see it. You have SPECIFIC evidence of why it is needed! make yourself a hero after the fact.

 

[roger]

Here is a video about policies not being followed. Some of those being interviewed rub me wrong but regardless, safety policies are in place for the employees well being.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfnEuRA7-vo

Roger