Quote for the grunt work on FA system changeout...

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sw_ross

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I have a request for a quote on a Fire Alarm system changeout.
They need someone to change out 20 smoke sensors, 7 heat sensors, 5 pull stations, an annunciator, and the main panel. They're changing int from a Siemens panel to a Simplex panel.

The plan is to have the electrician change out all the hardware then the FA company will come back in and do all the programming/troubleshooting.

Supposedly the wiring for the existing set up will get re-used for the new system.
Theoretically, all I would have to do is pull the old sensor off and re-install a new sensor, same for the pull stations, annunciator, and main panel.

I have virtually no experience with commercial FA systems.

I'm looking for feedback from anyone who has experience or knowledge about this scenario...

Thanks!
 
First, tell the customer he's an idiot for swapping the Siemens for Simplex.

OK, don't do that, but if they just want to burn money they could put it in an envelope and send it to me. That said, once the panel is off line, who's responsible for the fire watch? This is not a one-day turnaround, unless you think you can get it done in 24 hours working around the clock. Assuming the Simplex tech shows up when he/she is supposed to, which is a 50/50 proposition.

You may have to add some terminal block cabinets because there's no guarantee that once you put the new FACP up that the wires will all reach where they need to go in the cabinet. Make sure that the annnuciator wiring is good for data and power. Siemens uses a pair for power and a pair for dedicated data, not the SLC. I'm not sure about Simplex, but I think it goes on the SLC loop with a pair for power.

One day to remove old devices and tag all the conductors. Guarantee that they haven't found all the devices, unless they disconnected the SLC loop and counted all the troubles. Which won't work if it's an old System 3 or other Siemens conventional panel. (Two men)
Half a day to program the detectors and pull stations, mark them and mark up the plan where they are going. (One man, could be in the office)
One day to mount the new panel, annunciator, detector bases and pull stations. Also, check for shorts and grounds before you start. (Two men)
One day to program the panel and have the Simplex tech cool his heels while your guys chase any misidentified devices or shorts/grounds they missed previously. (Two men)
One day to do the final test and inspection WITHOUT the AHJ. (Two men)
One day to the the final test and inspection WITH the AHJ. (Two men)

Lots of folks will say you don't need two guys or you can get it done faster, but you probably won't lose money if you follow my suggestions. Site conditions and AHJ requirements not included.
 
Good information. Thanks.
Apparently the Siemens system stopped working, or they were having issues that they couldn’t remedy and determined to just change out the whole system. They haven’t had an operable FA system for a couple of months at this time.

I wasn’t a part of any of that.
I was just contacted and given the info I described.
I agree, it will probably take some time to change out the sensors. I walked the structure and 4 of them that I could find were 30’ AFF in a retail space area.
the store manager said the display units are able to be rolled around giving access to a lift.

I anticipate a day for these 4 sensors by the time I pick up a lift, do those sensors (with moving furniture, etc.), then returning the lift. Then “hope” there isn’t any issues with these sensors that require an additional lift rental...

The more I talk about this, the more I feel like it’s not in my “normal” description of work and there’s too many unknowns for me to bid this work.

I’ll probably end up calling them this afternoon and tell them so.

Thanks for advice.
 
sw_ross said:
I have a request for a quote on a Fire Alarm system changeout.
They need someone to change out 20 smoke sensors, 7 heat sensors, 5 pull stations, an annunciator, and the main panel. They're changing int from a Siemens panel to a Simplex panel.
Click to expand...

Who contacted you? Was it the store or the FA company.

Most of this is pretty simple stuff other than the fact that it's in hard to get to locations and will probably be night work.

If you give yourself enough time on this it could be interesting work if you haven't done it before.
 
gadfly56 said:
First, tell the customer he's an idiot for swapping the Siemens for Simplex.

OK, don't do that, but if they just want to burn money they could put it in an envelope and send it to me. That said, once the panel is off line, who's responsible for the fire watch? This is not a one-day turnaround, unless you think you can get it done in 24 hours working around the clock. Assuming the Simplex tech shows up when he/she is supposed to, which is a 50/50 proposition.

You may have to add some terminal block cabinets because there's no guarantee that once you put the new FACP up that the wires will all reach where they need to go in the cabinet. Make sure that the annnuciator wiring is good for data and power. Siemens uses a pair for power and a pair for dedicated data, not the SLC. I'm not sure about Simplex, but I think it goes on the SLC loop with a pair for power.

One day to remove old devices and tag all the conductors. Guarantee that they haven't found all the devices, unless they disconnected the SLC loop and counted all the troubles. Which won't work if it's an old System 3 or other Siemens conventional panel. (Two men)
Half a day to program the detectors and pull stations, mark them and mark up the plan where they are going. (One man, could be in the office)
One day to mount the new panel, annunciator, detector bases and pull stations. Also, check for shorts and grounds before you start. (Two men)
One day to program the panel and have the Simplex tech cool his heels while your guys chase any misidentified devices or shorts/grounds they missed previously. (Two men)
One day to do the final test and inspection WITHOUT the AHJ. (Two men)
One day to the the final test and inspection WITH the AHJ. (Two men)

Lots of folks will say you don't need two guys or you can get it done faster, but you probably won't lose money if you follow my suggestions. Site conditions and AHJ requirements not included.
Click to expand...

The installer takes care of the programming? Isnt that the vendor tech?
 
horsegoer said:
The installer takes care of the programming? Isnt that the vendor tech?
Click to expand...
Simplex devices use rotary switches for programming. Those the contractor will do. The panel programming will be by Simplex, or whatever other brand is in use.
 
gadfly56 said:
Simplex devices use rotary switches for programming. Those the contractor will do. The panel programming will be by Simplex, or whatever other brand is in use.
Click to expand...
well that's good to know. isnt that extra time compared to devices without rotary switches? which devices have the switches and what programming function are they used for?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
sw_ross said:
Good information. Thanks.
Apparently the Siemens system stopped working, or they were having issues that they couldn’t remedy and determined to just change out the whole system. They haven’t had an operable FA system for a couple of months at this time.

I wasn’t a part of any of that.
I was just contacted and given the info I described.
I agree, it will probably take some time to change out the sensors. I walked the structure and 4 of them that I could find were 30’ AFF in a retail space area.
the store manager said the display units are able to be rolled around giving access to a lift.

I anticipate a day for these 4 sensors by the time I pick up a lift, do those sensors (with moving furniture, etc.), then returning the lift. Then “hope” there isn’t any issues with these sensors that require an additional lift rental...

The more I talk about this, the more I feel like it’s not in my “normal” description of work and there’s too many unknowns for me to bid this work.

I’ll probably end up calling them this afternoon and tell them so.

Thanks for advice.
Click to expand...
Hey, you've gone this far ... go for it, nothing ventured nothing gained.

As far as the lift rental, just put in a week rental instead of a day.

I used to make my best profits on jobs that "others" found too odd to bid on.
 
horsegoer said:
well that's good to know. isnt that extra time compared to devices without rotary switches? which devices have the switches and what programming function are they used for?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I should have been more specific. Simplex devices use rotary switches (and some dip switches, IIRC) for addressing. Much faster than Siemens, where the devices are addressed electronically. On the other hand, you can use the Siemens DPU (Device Programming Unit) to check the condition of the SLC without hooking it up to the panel and detect duplicate or unprogrammed devices.
 
gadfly56 said:
I should have been more specific. Simplex devices use rotary switches (and some dip switches, IIRC) for addressing. Much faster than Siemens, where the devices are addressed electronically. On the other hand, you can use the Siemens DPU (Device Programming Unit) to check the condition of the SLC without hooking it up to the panel and detect duplicate or unprogrammed devices.
Click to expand...
How would using rotary switches( i guess manual addressing) be much faster than Siemens devices that do it automatically?

Do all FA devices get an address...e.g. pull stations, strobes, smokes etc.?Thanks.

This is how it's done?

 
horsegoer said:
How would using rotary switches( i guess manual addressing) be much faster than Siemens devices that do it automatically?

Do all FA devices get an address...e.g. pull stations, strobes, smokes etc.?Thanks.

This is how it's done?

Click to expand...
Siemens doesn't do it automatically. Each device has to have the address programmed in using a DPU. On some devices you can also set a couple of parameters this way.
 
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