radiant cieling heat

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bobbymari

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los angeles ca
any suggestions on dectecting breaks on old radiant heat (cieling) systems? also what are best splicing methods, i usually go with butt splices but more times than not its only a matter of time before Im called out again. I usually try to just snag the dedicated 240 volts and talk them into throwing in a decent sized wall heater but not always an option when dealing with prop mgmnt companies. any suggestions? I hate this heat but do have to deal with it
 
I refuse to work with it. Few house have them and when they want recessed cans added I say no way.... I suspect you could call a manufacturer of the product and see what they offer in terms of a splice. I don't believe a butt splice would be compliant without some cover over it.
 
I hear you loud and clear on refusing to work with it , only problem is some of my bread and butter are some prop mgmnt co's with numerous 70's aptmnts. I dont have this problem toooo often but from time to time it does happen. yea the butt splices get covered with plaster but usually go bad in a couple months, guess I'll just continue my mission to eliminate these systems one aptmnt at a time ;)
 
Detecting breaks should be relatively easy with any tone and probe type device... just attach the tone generator to one end of the offending element and follow it until it ends. Can usually verify it by attaching to the other end and tracing backwards.

As far as splicing you are connecting to a heating element... as mentioned butt splices will deteriorate quickly because the element itself will expand and contract every time it is heated and cooled, causing and compression type connection to loosen and arc.

The only effective way I could see of splicing it would be some type of weld, spot weld, or brazing... and it probably wouldn't be easy.
 
One of my regular customers has an apartment building that has this type of heat. We usually get one or two calls a year. We don't fix it, we abandon the ceiling heat, and install a fan-forced heater directly below the thermostat. It's quick and easy. One by one, the ceiling heat is being replaced.

This type of heat is just a bad idea, not to mention the fact that the heat is above you! Heat rises, so it seems like such a waste.
 
buzzbar this is the same i try to do whenever i can which is what i meant by snagging 240 from thermostat it since its sounding more and more like everyone is on the same page of abandoning it may start to become a more "forcefull" suggestion. definetly wont be up in ceiling doing any soldering or welding . thanks all you have reassured me that abandoning is the best fix. Ive also used baseboard heat but much better responses to wall mount fan forced heat
 
bobbymari said:
any suggestions on dectecting breaks on old radiant heat (cieling) systems? also what are best splicing methods, i usually go with butt splices but more times than not its only a matter of time before Im called out again. I usually try to just snag the dedicated 240 volts and talk them into throwing in a decent sized wall heater but not always an option when dealing with prop mgmnt companies. any suggestions? I hate this heat but do have to deal with it
Click to expand...

Infrared camera will pinpoint it! Go back to the OEM for splice kits.
 
1. Check breaker box for any breaker that may have been turned off for the summer season.
2. Check thermostat for correct voltage and operation. Most common test is flashing line conductor to the load conductor of the thermostat, if we get a spark, it's checked out ok, but if we don't we receive a spark, then we have a break in the ceiling heat cable.
3. We then remove the thermostat and cap off the line conductors.
4. Then we introduce high voltage from a transformer to the ceiling heat (cold lead) cables. This will find an arc across the break in the ceiling heat cable, creating a hot spot in the ceiling, where we must then fine the Hot Spot with an infrared heat gun. Once we have narrowed it down to the break area, we then open a small area in the ceiling to expose the heating cable, usually the hole is no wider than ?" and no longer than 6"-8".
5. Once the wires are exposed, we strip back 1" of the wires insulation and clean the bare conductor with a knife blade preparing it for soldering.
6. We then slide a piece of Heat Shrink over the insulation of the heating cable.
7. Now, we are ready to couple the wires together with a special (splice) over our heating conductor and crimp it into place. Now, we solder the splice and let it cool before sliding our heat shrink over our splice, apply heat to heat shrink.
8. Now, we can staple our heating cable back to the drywall using round 9/16" staples.
9. Test your splice by the flashing test at the thermostat; if you have a spark, you are now ready to repair your hole.
10. Repair hole by filling it with joint compound or plaster patch, depending on your ceiling. You must wait 24 hours after patching, before normal use can take place.

just a quick search produced this repair result scr@$ that wall heaters from here on out it is......
 
4. Then we introduce high voltage from a transformer to the ceiling heat (cold lead) cables. This will find an arc across the break in the ceiling heat cable, creating a hot spot in the ceiling, where we must then fine the Hot Spot with an infrared heat gun.
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My boss uses a method similar to this. Instead of a transformer he uses one of the spark plug wires in his truck and checks for a tic, tic, tic, in the ceiling with a stethoscope.
 
buzzbar said:
This type of heat is just a bad idea, not to mention the fact that the heat is above you! Heat rises, so it seems like such a waste.
Click to expand...

It is a radiant heat, I believe the drywall it is installed in has a reflective foil backing, but there is still some convection losses like there is with all radiant heat, a little air circulation at the ceiling doesn't hurt with any type of heating system as heat is always going to accumulate at the ceiling.

weressl said:
Infrared camera will pinpoint it! Go back to the OEM for splice kits.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the heater need to be working to detect it with a infrared camera?

ActionDave said:
My boss uses a method similar to this. Instead of a transformer he uses one of the spark plug wires in his truck and checks for a tic, tic, tic, in the ceiling with a stethoscope.
Click to expand...

My truck is a diesel - maybe connect it to the injector pump and fuel will leak out the open end:lol:
 
I used to install quite a bit of electric radiant ceiling heat in the late 80's. Radiant heat works differently than other form of heat. It is not directly heating the air. It radiates the heat down into the people and objects in the room. Obviously the air will get heated and some of the heat will rise but nothing like other heat. If you measure the temperature of the room at the ceiling then the floor it will be very close with radiant heat. If you try the same thing with other heat sources there will be a substantial difference between the floor and ceiling temperature.

The stuff I was using came on rolls that were either 16" or 24" wide. It had 2 metal buss bars on each side. Between the bars were lines of graphite based ink which produced the heat. after the insulation was installed you rolled the heat out and stapled it to the bottom of the joists. You then cut it to fit. There were special connectors made by Amp that crimped on to the buss bars on one side and the other side of the connector crimped onto 1 or 2 12 gauge wires. The wire used was single conductor UF. You hooked all the mats together then ran the leads to the T-stat box. Standard drywall or blueboard was installed over the mat. If someone were to cut a hole in the mat it would only damage that portion of it which was not a big deal. If the buss got cut jumper leads would need to get installed across that area.
 
weressl said:
Infrared camera will pinpoint it! Go back to the OEM for splice kits.
Click to expand...

An infrared camera will pinpoint any open legs in a parallel system, and will do great at finding high resistance connections. It will also find the point where a run of heat tape composed of two wires and a parallel resistive element ends. You could also get a fair idea by feeling the ceiling.
But if there is a break in a series run of resistance cable, the whole thing will be cold.
(That was my first idea too. :))
 
GoldDigger said:
An infrared camera will pinpoint any open legs in a parallel system, and will do great at finding high resistance connections. It will also find the point where a run of heat tape composed of two wires and a parallel resistive element ends. You could also get a fair idea by feeling the ceiling.
But if there is a break in a series run of resistance cable, the whole thing will be cold.
(That was my first idea too. :))
Click to expand...

Yes I was thinking of parallel resistance heaters, not series. Duh:slaphead:
 
weressl said:
Yes I was thinking of parallel resistance heaters, not series. Duh:slaphead:
Click to expand...

Sorry, I did not know they made a parallel resistance heater for this application. I have not seen very many, but the ones I have seen were all series type.
 
Curt Schwartz is correct. Hot AIR rises. Radiant heating heats the mass (in this case the ceiling) in the room and the mass "radiates" the heat into the space. One of the primary laws of thermal conductivity is that heat goes to cold. Radiant heat goes to cold so if the area below the ceiling is cooler than the ceiling, the heat drops to heat the cooler areas/masses/people below.

I'm curious about the use of a transformer to put out high volts... excuse my ignorance but doesn't a transformer bring the volts down?

Something tells me I'm about to get slammed!! ;)
 
Warmsmeallup said:
Curt Schwartz is correct. Hot AIR rises. Radiant heating heats the mass (in this case the ceiling) in the room and the mass "radiates" the heat into the space. One of the primary laws of thermal conductivity is that heat goes to cold. Radiant heat goes to cold so if the area below the ceiling is cooler than the ceiling, the heat drops to heat the cooler areas/masses/people below.

I'm curious about the use of a transformer to put out high volts... excuse my ignorance but doesn't a transformer bring the volts down?

Something tells me I'm about to get slammed!! ;)
Click to expand...

A transformer can change voltage either up or down
 
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