Random triping arc fault breakers

[gruff67]

New home constructed in 2008. Has never been occupied. Nothing plugged in to any outlets. 4 bedroom circuits. No shared neutrals. The arc fault breakers trip at random times of the day and may go for several days without triping at all, but when they do trip all 4 of them will trip within 2-3 seconds of each other. Any ideas of what is going on?

 

[al hildenbrand]

What about luminaires and smoke detectors?
What version of the NEC applied . . . the 2005?
Are these AFCIs Branch Feeder or Combination?
How have you learned they are tripping within seconds of each other (not simultaneously)?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Oh, pardon my manners.

Welcome to the Forum

 

[Cavie]

What about luminaires and smoke detectors?
What version of the NEC applied . . . the 2005?
Are these AFCIs Branch Feeder or Combination?
How have you learned they are tripping within seconds of each other (not simultaneously)?

I just love it when people answer a question with a question when they don't know the answer. I don't have a clue so I'm not gonna answer the OP.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I just love it when people answer a question with a question when they don't know the answer. I don't have a clue so I'm not gonna answer the OP.

Lets see, your response is any better??????????????:roll:



This is an unusual circumstance. There could be other considerations due to the dwelling never having been occupied.
I would contact the manufacturer of the device. They have built a large database of information on their units and they may have an answer for you. Depending on the actual situation, they may even send a tech out to check the situation.
Keep us apprised of the issue.

 

[hurk27]

Multi-wire branch circuits.
loose neutrals.
lightning
Motor loads.
Bad AFCI breakers.
bad underground circuits out to a lamp post.
loose connections.
cross neutral connections in junction box's.
UFO with a tractor beam trying to take the house to his planet.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

UFO with a tracter beam trying to take the house to his planet.

I was going to mention the exact same thing...didn't think anyone would believe me.

 

[gruff67]

Random triping arc fault breakers

Hello Al,
Thank you for your response.This is kind of a long answer to your questions. The house belongs to my son. I helped him with construction including wiring.

Am not sure which version of the NEC applied but learned from the state electrical inspector that each bedroom outlet circuit required AFCI protection. Each bedroom outlet circuit has its own individual AFCI.

One circuit also feeds smoke detectors and another has a closet light. The other two are strictly outlet circuits.

As we worked finishing the house sometimes when we got there the AFCI's were tripped and other times they were not. Sometimes we were gone for several days and they would be ok and other times they were tripped when we got there. We never left anything plugged in when we left.

My son moved in about four months ago. The AFCI's are still doing the same thing. He noticed when they trip it is not simultaneously but they all go within 2-3 seconds. It's like - one trip - two trip - three trip - four trip.

Best Regards,
Gene Ruff

 

[curt swartz]

What manufacture are the AFCI's? Square D hard an issue with some that would trip randomly about once a week. I had random trip problems on several jobs so finally called Square D and was told about the defective devices. I exchanged the breakers and never had any further problems. The problem breakers were manufactured during a several month period and were not recalled but Square D would replace them if asked.

 

[electricguy61]

Change them to standard breakers like many of us do.


I know I can live in my own home without them

 

[al hildenbrand]

This is kind of a long answer to your questions.

I agree with Pierre, above, that this is an unusual circumstance. Your details are helpful. Thanks.

One circuit also feeds smoke detectors and another has a closet light. The other two are strictly outlet circuits.

OK. Four AFCI circuits. Two that are receptacle outlets only, one that is for a closet light only, and one that is for smoke detectors only . . . right?

I gather from this that there are no overhead or wall luminaires. (If there are luminaires, paddlefans, etc., do they have compact fluorescents, or are they LEDs, plain old incandescent, electronic or magnetic ballasted fluorescent, electronic or magnetic transformer supplied low voltage, or what?)

As we worked finishing the house sometimes when we got there the AFCI's were tripped and other times they were not. Sometimes we were gone for several days and they would be ok and other times they were tripped when we got there. We never left anything plugged in when we left.

This is the really curious set of symptoms. Curt, above, asked about the AFCI manufacturer's name.

My son moved in about four months ago. The AFCI's are still doing the same thing. He noticed when they trip it is not simultaneously but they all go within 2-3 seconds. It's like - one trip - two trip - three trip - four trip.

Again, this is really curious.

Are each of the circuits, on the load side of the AFCI breaker wired with a hot and neutral that are not in contact with any other circuit conductors?

If the wiring method you chose is NMB cable, is the bare copper carefully installed at each and every box so that it is not possible for it to touch the neutral (white)?

 

[gruff67]

Random triping arc fault breakers

The panel is a 200 amp Homeline. I believe it is made by Square D.
We had regular breakers in those circuits and had no problems until the electrical inspector made us change them to AFCI's.

 

[mxslick]

Since there was a period when the house was unoccupied, I would be looking at the wiring (specifically the home runs as they head to the panel) for rodent damage.

Are the AFCI breakers stacked on each other? Might be good to separate them by one space each.

I also ask the OP again what brand are they, and what vintage?

 

[al hildenbrand]

I also ask the OP again what brand are they, and what vintage?

Sq D HOM. We don't know yet whether they are Combination Type, or Branch Feeder Type.

Gene,

There is a tag on the face of the breaker that can be read without removing the panel cover. In little tiny print the tag will say whether it is Combination or Branch Feeder.

 

[GeorgeB]

Are the AFCI breakers stacked on each other? Might be good to separate them by one space each.

OK, pretend engineer here, not electrushun ...

If adjacent, they are on different "phases" ... if spaced 1, same phase ... grasping at straws here, more details? Are all on the same phase? If so, does splitting 2 to the other eliminate half the tripping units?

AFCIs have a GFCI feature as well ... I'd look at some large 120 load returning via ECG instead of GEC AND the ECG bus having a poor connection to the transformer center tap conductor. ECG going above GEC initiates a GF trip in many cases.

 

[jwjrw]

We had some of the non combos trip. We seperated the grounds from the neutrals in the boxes on the circuit and the problems went away. We have not had that issue on the combo types.

 

[jwjrw]

AFCIs have a GFCI feature as well ... I'd look at some large 120 load returning via ECG instead of GEC AND the ECG bus having a poor connection to the transformer center tap conductor. ECG going above GEC initiates a GF trip in many cases.

I saw a spec sheet on the new seimens and it does not have gfi feature. I don't think the others actually have the gfi feature but work like a gfi does. IDK for sure about that.

 

[LEO2854]

OK, pretend engineer here, not electrushun ...

If adjacent, they are on different "phases" ... if spaced 1, same phase ... grasping at straws here, more details? Are all on the same phase? If so, does splitting 2 to the other eliminate half the tripping units?

AFCIs have a GFCI feature as well ... I'd look at some large 120 load returning via ECG instead of GEC AND the ECG bus having a poor connection to the transformer center tap conductor. ECG going above GEC initiates a GF trip in many cases.

Can you provide a link for AFCI/GFCI Breakers??

 

[jwjrw]

Can you provide a link for AFCI/GFCI Breakers??

They don't make them. He was trying to say some brands have a coil type device in them like a gfi but they are NOT GFI's.