Range outlet Nuetral and ground bonded together

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Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

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Location
USA
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Electrician ,contractor
what code cycle if any allowed for a range outlet branch supplied from a sub panel to have its Nuetral bonded to the ground at the outlet box or not even have a seperate ground wire.

I was under the assumtion this was only allowed when the branch circuit originated at/from the main service.
 
Can't remember the year but it was quite a few cycles ago that required 4 wires to the range or dryer. Previously to that 3 wires were allowed and still is on existing installs. 250.140 is the exception and IMO, 250.140(3) allows insulated neutral to be used if it is connected anywhere in the system. If the dryer or range wire was part of an se cable then it had to originate at the service.
 
The neutral was never permitted to be bonded to an EGC except in the range or dryer. The circuit was required to originate from the service if SE cable with a bare neutral was used. If the neutral was insulated it could come from any panel.
 
The way i read that code section is that you must first not have an existing ground wire present to then apply the following exception.
I do not read "Outlet" as being a " receptacle"

Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations onlywhere an equipment grounding conductor is not present inthe outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges,wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units,clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part ofthe circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to bethe grounded circuit conductor​
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if all thefollowing conditions are met.​
(1) .​
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The supply circuit is 1201240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or 208Y1120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, vryeconnectedsystem.(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWGcopper ot 8 awg AL(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the groundedconductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrancecable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of​
the equipment are bonded to the equipment.


 So I take it if there is a ground wire you must use it! My opinion.
 
Correct if the wire has an egc and a neutral then yes I would separate them otherwise you have a parallel neutral. But if it was installed back when it was legal to use 3 wire then you could just leave the egc unconnected.
 
iwire said:
Not all outlets are receptacles but all receptacles are outlets.
Click to expand...

The exception does not seem to speak of Receptacles.

Dennis Alwon said:
Correct if the wire has an egc and a neutral then yes I would separate them otherwise you have a parallel neutral. But if it was installed back when it was legal to use 3 wire then you could just leave the egc unconnected.
Click to expand...

I don't see how if in the era it was ok to use the nuetral to ground the frame made it legitimate to either tie the two together or to leave the ground wire dangling in the outlet box or junction box. I would think that in any era if there is a proper ground present it must be used correctly.
 
Sierrasparky said:
I don't see how if in the era it was ok to use the nuetral to ground the frame made it legitimate to either tie the two together or to leave the ground wire dangling in the outlet box or junction box. I would think that in any era if there is a proper ground present it must be used correctly.
Click to expand...

It was okay to tie the neutral from a 3 wire circuit to the frame of the dryer. It was never code to run an egc and tie the neutral to it.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
It was okay to tie the neutral from a 3 wire circuit to the frame of the dryer. It was never code to run an egc and tie the neutral to it.
Click to expand...

well if you install a 3 wire receptacle in a metal outlet box and have the ground tied to the box.
Then when you install the receptacle in the box the yoke will tie both the ground and the nuetral together.


i have seen this done in entire condo complexes. I don't believe it was ever legitimate.
 
Sierrasparky said:
well if you install a 3 wire receptacle in a metal outlet box and have the ground tied to the box.
Then when you install the receptacle in the box the yoke will tie both the ground and the nuetral together.


i have seen this done in entire condo complexes. I don't believe it was ever legitimate.
Click to expand...

How would installing a NEMA 10-30 receptacle in a metal box tie the ground and neutral together? The neutral terminal of the receptacle is not connected to the yoke of the receptacle.
 
Sierrasparky said:
what code cycle if any allowed for a range outlet branch supplied from a sub panel to have its Nuetral bonded to the ground at the outlet box or not even have a seperate ground wire.

I was under the assumtion this was only allowed when the branch circuit originated at/from the main service.
Click to expand...

The neutral and ground bond was/is not allowed in the box after the 1996 code but it is currently allowed in the dryer for retro installs. The allowance of the neutral ground bond in the box came about in Amendment no-53 July 1942. It was believed to conserved raw materials for the war.


I paraphrased the above from Ray C Mullins Book "Residential Electrical wiring"pg 324.
 
Sierrasparky said:
well if you install a 3 wire receptacle in a metal outlet box and have the ground tied to the box.
Then when you install the receptacle in the box the yoke will tie both the ground and the nuetral together.


i have seen this done in entire condo complexes. I don't believe it was ever legitimate.
Click to expand...

It isn't. Not according to 250.140 exception as Dennis stated earlier.
If you have a grounding conductor in the box, you have to use it for the appliance.
 
curt swartz said:
How would installing a NEMA 10-30 receptacle in a metal box tie the ground and neutral together? The neutral terminal of the receptacle is not connected to the yoke of the receptacle.
Click to expand...

You are correct I stand corrected ,, Thanks i was thinking of the 4 wire recept.

Hv&Lv said:
It isn't. Not according to 250.140 exception as Dennis stated earlier.
If you have a grounding conductor in the box, you have to use it for the appliance.
Click to expand...


I agree. If it is there it must be used.
 
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