Range outlet
- Thread starter dmp66
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: Range outlet
If the wiring for the range receptacle was installed prior to 1996 NEC then the grounded conductor was used to bond the frame of the range. The instructions for the range should mention there is a jumper you install in the range, and you need a three wire cord.
If you are not sure about this, get a qualified electrican to help you, if you don't get it right (as simple as it seems) some one could get a severe electrical shock or die.
If the wiring for the range receptacle was installed prior to 1996 NEC then the grounded conductor was used to bond the frame of the range. The instructions for the range should mention there is a jumper you install in the range, and you need a three wire cord.
If you are not sure about this, get a qualified electrican to help you, if you don't get it right (as simple as it seems) some one could get a severe electrical shock or die.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Range outlet
If the plug is a 4-wire the ground will be opposite the neutral connection. It will be the center bottom terminal with the neutral up. And if this is a new receptacle then it has to be a 4-wire receptacle per code. and as Tom has mention the bond strap (neutral to ground) in the back of the range has to be removed.
If the plug is a 4-wire the ground will be opposite the neutral connection. It will be the center bottom terminal with the neutral up. And if this is a new receptacle then it has to be a 4-wire receptacle per code. and as Tom has mention the bond strap (neutral to ground) in the back of the range has to be removed.
Re: Range outlet
dmp 66,
My interpretation of your statement is not clear as to which way the connection is being made. Is this an old 3-wire appliance or a new range with a four prong connector that doesn't match the wall receptacle? As I understand your question for connecting to a 'new range outlet' that indicates retro-fitting the old 3 wire appliance to a four wire plug connector.
If a new four prong appliance cord-plug for your range is needed, the changeover requires removing the old jumper bond strap from the existing neutral (white) terminal that is connected to the frame.
Make sure the new four prong cord pigtail green wire is attached directly to the appliance frame with a new 'green' ground screw you install.
In addition to ranges, retrofitting is needed for old 3 wire clothes dryers under the same circumstance for appliance equipment grounding safety.
Like Tom Baker and Hurk27 emphasize, this is a life safety issue that needs attention in a professional manner. Just reading your question leaves doubt in my mind as to what you are going to end up with.
rbj, Seattle
dmp 66,
My interpretation of your statement is not clear as to which way the connection is being made. Is this an old 3-wire appliance or a new range with a four prong connector that doesn't match the wall receptacle? As I understand your question for connecting to a 'new range outlet' that indicates retro-fitting the old 3 wire appliance to a four wire plug connector.
If a new four prong appliance cord-plug for your range is needed, the changeover requires removing the old jumper bond strap from the existing neutral (white) terminal that is connected to the frame.
Make sure the new four prong cord pigtail green wire is attached directly to the appliance frame with a new 'green' ground screw you install.
In addition to ranges, retrofitting is needed for old 3 wire clothes dryers under the same circumstance for appliance equipment grounding safety.
Like Tom Baker and Hurk27 emphasize, this is a life safety issue that needs attention in a professional manner. Just reading your question leaves doubt in my mind as to what you are going to end up with.
rbj, Seattle
Re: Range outlet
it sounds like the "new" appliance is wired with a three prong plug it would be safer in my opinion to install a new 4 prong plug with the grounding plug bonded to the appliance ensuring grounding incase of shorts to the frame.
however if by "plug in" you mean that the receptical is a three prong then it deffinatly needs replaced. I am not a big fan of jumping a grounded wire that can have current to a grounding wire that is supposed to take the current that might accidently be placed on it due to fault.
it sounds like the "new" appliance is wired with a three prong plug it would be safer in my opinion to install a new 4 prong plug with the grounding plug bonded to the appliance ensuring grounding incase of shorts to the frame.
however if by "plug in" you mean that the receptical is a three prong then it deffinatly needs replaced. I am not a big fan of jumping a grounded wire that can have current to a grounding wire that is supposed to take the current that might accidently be placed on it due to fault.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Range outlet
This is easy.You start with what receptacle is available.Now you match the cord to it.If its a 3 wire then use bonding jumper between frame and neutral,if its a 4 wire remove jumper and ground goes to frame and neutral goes to the neutral.Cord must match receptacle,change if you have wrong cord.If your not sure about what all this means then call an electrician as someone could get killed if your wrong.
Better add one thing,if this is a mobile home it must be a 4 wire
[ November 13, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
This is easy.You start with what receptacle is available.Now you match the cord to it.If its a 3 wire then use bonding jumper between frame and neutral,if its a 4 wire remove jumper and ground goes to frame and neutral goes to the neutral.Cord must match receptacle,change if you have wrong cord.If your not sure about what all this means then call an electrician as someone could get killed if your wrong.
Better add one thing,if this is a mobile home it must be a 4 wire
[ November 13, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
jafro
Member
- Location
- Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta, Canada
Re: Range outlet
I am an inspector in Canada and if I ever observed a bonding jumper from neutral to ground in my area well you are ???. To save a few American buck you would install this bond instead of changing the nmd cable.The neutral must only be bonded at the first Overcurrent device. Grandfathering kills
Jafro
I am an inspector in Canada and if I ever observed a bonding jumper from neutral to ground in my area well you are ???. To save a few American buck you would install this bond instead of changing the nmd cable.The neutral must only be bonded at the first Overcurrent device. Grandfathering kills
Jafro
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Range outlet
My understanding is we allowed the frame of a range to be bonded to neutral back in World war 2 to save copper and we continued to allow it because no danger seemed presant.I am glad we finally corrected this,but we have many older homes still out there with a 3 wire system.Not much can be done about them unless someone wants to spend a lot of $$$$$
My understanding is we allowed the frame of a range to be bonded to neutral back in World war 2 to save copper and we continued to allow it because no danger seemed presant.I am glad we finally corrected this,but we have many older homes still out there with a 3 wire system.Not much can be done about them unless someone wants to spend a lot of $$$$$
Re: Range outlet
My inspector told me that when I connect my new oven to the old 3 wire circuit that, according to 250-130, I should use a 4 wire plug to a new 4 prong receptacle and run the 4 wire conductors back to a J-Box for splicing to the old, original branch circuit. At the box I can pigtail the ground to the box and then, this is the crucial part, run a single conductor ground to within 5 feet of where the cold water pipe enters the building and bond at that point. (No mention of cutting jumpers)
I'd asked about grounding at the subpanel but that was a definite no-no since it needed to be grounded at the origination of the branch circuit, or, bonded as described above.
Does this sound like safe advice? That's my primary concern.
D-
[ November 20, 2004, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: DjZee ]
My inspector told me that when I connect my new oven to the old 3 wire circuit that, according to 250-130, I should use a 4 wire plug to a new 4 prong receptacle and run the 4 wire conductors back to a J-Box for splicing to the old, original branch circuit. At the box I can pigtail the ground to the box and then, this is the crucial part, run a single conductor ground to within 5 feet of where the cold water pipe enters the building and bond at that point. (No mention of cutting jumpers)
I'd asked about grounding at the subpanel but that was a definite no-no since it needed to be grounded at the origination of the branch circuit, or, bonded as described above.
Does this sound like safe advice? That's my primary concern.
D-
[ November 20, 2004, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: DjZee ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Range outlet
If this oven circuit comes from a sub panel you will have to fix it.
If this oven circuit comes from a sub panel you will have to fix it.
Re: Range outlet
Nope. The oven circuit doesn't originate from the subpanel. It runs from the main panel. I didn't want to rerun the whole feed in 4 wire and I thought this'd be another way to do it. Incidentally it's the only circuit I didn't rerun when establishing a new sub for the rest of the kitchen circuits.
So presumably if I run the separate wire, and make the 3 conductor a 4 conductor by bonding that extra wire to the system ground (water pipe in this case), then the inspector won't whack me.
Ever solve a similar problem this way?
Nope. The oven circuit doesn't originate from the subpanel. It runs from the main panel. I didn't want to rerun the whole feed in 4 wire and I thought this'd be another way to do it. Incidentally it's the only circuit I didn't rerun when establishing a new sub for the rest of the kitchen circuits.
So presumably if I run the separate wire, and make the 3 conductor a 4 conductor by bonding that extra wire to the system ground (water pipe in this case), then the inspector won't whack me.
Ever solve a similar problem this way?
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Range outlet
OK, how many of you guys have seen trails of death associated with the three wire hook ups of the past?
Pretty close. Just the other day I got a call from a customer about a problem with her electric dryer. Seems she noticed "sparking" on the aluminum vent duct where it touched the water connections for the washer which was right next to the dryer.
The dryer was connected with a 3 wire cord and upon inspection I found the neutral had become loose on the panel neutral bus. When I moved the vent duct away from the water connection the dryer actually stopped running. This then put 120 volts on the dryer cabinet. If someone would have touched the dryer and the washing machine at the same time there could have been a disaster.
In this case it was easy enough to correct this dangerous situation. The receptacle was supplied with 10/3 AC from the main panel. All I had to do was change the receptacle and cord. Now if the neutral opens the dryer will just stop. The cabinet will remain safely grounded.
Grandfathered or not, it would be a good idea to change any 3 wire connection wherever it is possible.
-Hal
OK, how many of you guys have seen trails of death associated with the three wire hook ups of the past?
Pretty close. Just the other day I got a call from a customer about a problem with her electric dryer. Seems she noticed "sparking" on the aluminum vent duct where it touched the water connections for the washer which was right next to the dryer.
The dryer was connected with a 3 wire cord and upon inspection I found the neutral had become loose on the panel neutral bus. When I moved the vent duct away from the water connection the dryer actually stopped running. This then put 120 volts on the dryer cabinet. If someone would have touched the dryer and the washing machine at the same time there could have been a disaster.
In this case it was easy enough to correct this dangerous situation. The receptacle was supplied with 10/3 AC from the main panel. All I had to do was change the receptacle and cord. Now if the neutral opens the dryer will just stop. The cabinet will remain safely grounded.
Grandfathered or not, it would be a good idea to change any 3 wire connection wherever it is possible.
-Hal
Re: Range outlet
The typical household-type range or dryer requires (2) opposite "hots" & (1) "neutral" just to make it function properly. So logic tells you that it needs (4) conductors to function safely.
The concept of allowing the "neutral" to be used for equipment grounding purposes on these equipments never made sense, & dates way back.
There are many scenarios, including nearby well "grounded" objects such as clothes washers, water piping, & kitchen sinks, that created severe safety problems.
Was glad to see when NEC (was it '96 edition), finally started requiring 4-conductor circuitry for these.
Food for thought --- when will 3-wire cords be required for metal toasters?
The typical household-type range or dryer requires (2) opposite "hots" & (1) "neutral" just to make it function properly. So logic tells you that it needs (4) conductors to function safely.
The concept of allowing the "neutral" to be used for equipment grounding purposes on these equipments never made sense, & dates way back.
There are many scenarios, including nearby well "grounded" objects such as clothes washers, water piping, & kitchen sinks, that created severe safety problems.
Was glad to see when NEC (was it '96 edition), finally started requiring 4-conductor circuitry for these.
Food for thought --- when will 3-wire cords be required for metal toasters?
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Range outlet
I hope never. Can you imagine mommy sticking a knife down a grounded toaster to get a burned piece out? I assure you that it will be done while the toaster is on. As it stands now, how many people have been hurt on a toaster?
Re: Range outlet
Hi...I'm sorry to add to the post here, but I'm still a little confused. I have an existing 3 wire 50a stove circuit. Looks like it was installed when condo was built around 1988. The neutral is bonded to the frame within the stove. The cable is Type SE [ bare neutral ] and is a direct home run to panel. The cable run is very buried in multiple walls/ceilings etc, and so installation of new cable is problematic.
In reading 250-140, and pre 96 code 250-60, I'm still confused about 1 thing.
Short of installing new cable, is there any merit, and is it allowed, to add a separate ground to existing stove and grounding it to a near by copper h2o pipe and then removing to stove's interal neutral to frame bonding strap...
Hi...I'm sorry to add to the post here, but I'm still a little confused. I have an existing 3 wire 50a stove circuit. Looks like it was installed when condo was built around 1988. The neutral is bonded to the frame within the stove. The cable is Type SE [ bare neutral ] and is a direct home run to panel. The cable run is very buried in multiple walls/ceilings etc, and so installation of new cable is problematic.
In reading 250-140, and pre 96 code 250-60, I'm still confused about 1 thing.
Short of installing new cable, is there any merit, and is it allowed, to add a separate ground to existing stove and grounding it to a near by copper h2o pipe and then removing to stove's interal neutral to frame bonding strap...
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Range outlet
250.142 Use of Grounded Circuit Conductor for Grounding Equipment.
(B) Load-Side Equipment.
Exception No. 1: The frames of ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, and clothes dryers under the conditions permitted for existing installations by 250.140 shall be permitted to be grounded by a grounded circuit conductor.
250.142 Use of Grounded Circuit Conductor for Grounding Equipment.
(B) Load-Side Equipment.
Exception No. 1: The frames of ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, and clothes dryers under the conditions permitted for existing installations by 250.140 shall be permitted to be grounded by a grounded circuit conductor.
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