re-identifying ungrounded conductor
- Thread starter mike9593
- Start date
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kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Green is for equipment grounding only. There are places that allow you to re-identify white or gray conductors in certain situations, but I am not aware of any place that allows you to re-identify a green conductor unless maybe you colored the entire length in some way - not just the exposed ends. That may cause other problems though, such as having the conductor marked with insulation type every so often - which is part of construction requirements for conductors in the NEC - would need to verify exactly where but should be in art 310 somewhere.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Maybe you could just play the color blindness card and call it blue?
fmtjfw
Senior Member
- Location
- Fairmont, WV, USA
Or pretend you installed it 40 years ago. (Gray and Green were legit colors for ungrounded in the past).
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Gray was because of confusion over the wording "natural gray" that used to appear in NEC, though I don't really know that was the intent of the CMP that covers that area of NEC to use gray as an ungrounded conductor and they eventually removed that "natural gray" from the text.
I don't now of green ever being acceptable for ungrounded for anything over 50 volts at least since maybe the 1940's or 1950's. But before then and the beginning of using thermoplastics for insulation, there wasn't much for color variety being used either.
fmtjfw
Senior Member
- Location
- Fairmont, WV, USA
I've found green as an ungrounded conductor in 70--100 year old buildings
- Location
- Massachusetts
Here is a 208Y/120 service. I guess it was the colors they had that day.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I am more worried about that lamp socket fuse holder and bare EGC connection than the green tape.
- Location
- Massachusetts
No worries, that just powers the shunt trip in this breaker.
The bare EGC is part of an NM that runs to the switch in the lobby to kill the main. It was a Boston area thing for many years.These old buildings used to have outdoor cut out switches, they were often flush mounted down low in the brickwork and accessible from the sidewalk. They directly opened all ungrounded conductors.
I am thinking 1920s-1950s?? Anyway as these buildings had new services installed the old cutouts where abandon but push buttons where installed in the old boxes that shunt tripped the new main.
In the building I took the above picture it was wired to a emergency pull station in the building lobby.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
No worries, that just powers the shunt trip in this breaker.
These old buildings used to have outdoor cut out switches, they were often flush mounted down low in the brickwork and accessible from the sidewalk. They directly opened all ungrounded conductors.
I am thinking 1920s-1950s?? Anyway as these buildings had new services installed the old cutouts where abandon but push buttons where installed in the old boxes that shunt tripped the new main.
In the building I took the above picture it was wired to a emergency pull station in the building lobby.
I must say you get to be involved in way more interesting stuff than me.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Green was allowed for ungrounded, and required for EGC, until the 2005 code with its language restricting green or green/yellow stripe for the EGC only.
I had a 2008 code proposal to allow green to be used in traffic signal applications for the green lamp (common practice), it was rejected, but then the CMP had an exception for green in under 50V applications (thermostat wire)
The 2014 NEC added an exception for traffic signal cable, basically what I had proposed, but its a different CMP and chair now.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
maybe you could put black heat shrink over the whole length of the wire.
The outer finish is no longer green if you put black heat shrink over it.
The outer finish is no longer green if you put black heat shrink over it.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Can you please give a reference to any section in 1987-2002 NEC that allowed green to be anything besides an EGC, for applications above 50 volts. I must have been missing something for several years, or maybe there was some loophole there that was somewhat unnoticed, my guess is the intention was green only be used for EGC.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
I don't have an older code book handy, but I think that the older codes required that the EGC be green, but stopped short of prohibiting the use of green for ungrounded conductors.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
250.119 Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors.
Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be bare,
covered, or insulated. Individually covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a continuous
outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes except as permitted in this section.
This was added in the 2005 NEC: Conductors with insulation or individual covering that is green, green with one or more yellow stripes, or otherwise identified as permitted by this section shall not be used for ungrounded or grounded circuit conductors.
The proposal was by Phil Simmons, author of Soares Grounding..
Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be bare,
covered, or insulated. Individually covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a continuous
outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes except as permitted in this section.
This was added in the 2005 NEC: Conductors with insulation or individual covering that is green, green with one or more yellow stripes, or otherwise identified as permitted by this section shall not be used for ungrounded or grounded circuit conductors.
The proposal was by Phil Simmons, author of Soares Grounding..
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I guess it was a change that was somewhat unnoticed by most - as they figured they couldn't use a green for anything else in the first place. Even if you did twist the rule because it was worded to allow you to - most didn't want to add to confusion of what is an EGC and what is not.
I suppose it is possible the white/gray colors had similar issues at some point - especially the gray and the use of the wording "natural gray" at one time does come to mind.
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