Re-wiring old house in the city

[Sharpie]

I have a customer who lives in the city in an older house (80-100 yrs?). There are only a couple circuits going through most of the house on K&T, and where they are in switch boxes and recept boxes the old rubber insulation is dry and crumbling. She wants to be able to use A/C units in the windows, space heaters in bedrooms, curling iron in bathroom.... the normal stuff. She wants my recommendation and an estimate.

I believe that I should look at re-wiring the house for her. The house is duplex, brick exterior, lath and plaster walls, three stories and a basement with no access to a crawl space above the third floor.

I can fish wires from the basement to the other floors using the walls that the plumbing is in and using closet walls. the problem is getting the wires to their end locations with minimum demolition.

What have some of you done?

One of my thoughts is running wires around the upper corner of the rooms and covering them with crown molding (is that a code violation?).

Any thoughts would be very welcome. Thanks

 

[augie47]

perhaps wiremold ?

 

[480sparky]

I got a nickel that says you'll need to update the service as well.

Rewire are always labor intensive. Sometimes making holes is just impossible to avoid. I'd say using crown molding would be a violation.

 

[Sharpie]

I got a nickel that says you'll need to update the service as well.

Rewire are always labor intensive. Sometimes making holes is just impossible to avoid. I'd say using crown molding would be a violation.

I'm planning on making some holes, just trying to limit the damage. I'd like to stay away from wiremold as much as possible.

What code reference would you use to say that crown molding is a violation?

Oh yeah, I am planning on a service upgrade as well:wink:

 

[Fulthrotl]

I have a customer who lives in the city in an older house (80-100 yrs?). There are only a couple circuits going through most of the house on K&T, and where they are in switch boxes and recept boxes the old rubber insulation is dry and crumbling. She wants to be able to use A/C units in the windows, space heaters in bedrooms, curling iron in bathroom.... the normal stuff. She wants my recommendation and an estimate.

I believe that I should look at re-wiring the house for her. The house is duplex, brick exterior, lath and plaster walls, three stories and a basement with no access to a crawl space above the third floor.

I can fish wires from the basement to the other floors using the walls that the plumbing is in and using closet walls. the problem is getting the wires to their end locations with minimum demolition.

What have some of you done?

One of my thoughts is running wires around the upper corner of the rooms and covering them with crown molding (is that a code violation?).

Any thoughts would be very welcome. Thanks

i'd only go at this one time and material, and exclude patching.
the problem is the lath and plaster... doing this without destroying
the inside of the house is gonna be difficult.

get a see snake, and a couple extensions for it. you are gonna need them.
several flex bits, as you are gonna eat up a few.

i've seen crown molding used to hide wiring. you need to see if it'll fly
with the inspector that's gonna look at this.

for cutting thru lath and plaster without leaving cracks running along the
laths, a fein tool works well, but the blades are pricey. if it's an occupied
house, a really good vacuum with a hepa filter is mandatory.

also, old plaster very often contained asbestos. the old plasterers used
to throw a shovel or two of loose asbestos in the mixer, as the asbestos
made the product trowel out better. plan accordingly, if you have to cut
old plaster.

i've got a service near me that'll test materials for the "A" word for $20
bucks a sample. it's worth it. i'd have a piece of the material tested.
if it comes back positive, this thing is a whole 'nother thing. legally, you
might not be able to do it without proper licensing. in california, you wouldn't
be able to do it legally as a contractor without an asbestos abatement
license. you could do it as a homeowner, however, within limits.

i just got a letter in the mail from a widow of a guy i've known for 30
years... nice guy, died last year from mesothelioma. his widow is looking
for anyone with knowledge of the jobs he worked on... oh, boy, a guy
i worked with dies from asbestos cancer, and they want to know what
jobs you worked on together.... :-(

asbestos is a serious consideration. if you make it into dust, and it gets
loose in the house, it's impossible to get rid of without a full abatement.
otherwise the homeowner breathes it for the next xx years.

bet that'll teach you to ask for any thoughts....


randy

 

[raider1]

What code reference would you use to say that crown molding is a violation?

What wiring method would you use behind the crown molding?

Chris

 

[growler]

I have a customer who lives in the city in an older house (80-100 yrs?). She wants my recommendation and an estimate.Any thoughts would be very welcome. Thanks

Keep the number for emergency medical services on speed dial because when you show her the estimate you may need it.

What I do on a rewire rather than waste a lot of time with estimates is come up with a kind of hypothetical base number of say 15-20K and ask if they can afford to spend that type of money ( a commitment for at least this amount is necessary even to start to come up with an estimate, the actual cost may be much higher). About half of the people will say something like " I knew it was going to get expensive, maybe 3K, but I couldn't possibly afford to spend 15K". This will let you know that you are not going to rewire the place and you can start to look at different options. Maybe a new service and a couple of circuits. Start a job that can be finished at a later date. A new service is a good start.

Another thing to check on is to see if they plan to do any major remodeling in the future. It's easier to work if the house is already torn apart by other trades and there is going to be patching and painting anyway. Your price for a rewire will look a lot better if a GC is responsible for all this patching and painting. Overall cost of a project can be deceptive, it adds up quick.

 

[ohm]

What wiring method would you use behind the crown molding?

Chris

I'll bet fished MC cable and surface EMT will be used, if the job gets done at all.

 

[marcerrin]

90% of my business is rewiring old K&T homes. The best tools to have are a 3 5/8" Lennox carbide hole saw (make your holes easy to patch, and just big enough to fit your forearm into), a Rack-a-teers dustbowl (keeps it clean while cutting holes), a diversa-bit, and nylon fish stix.
We've rewired whole homes with no holes at all, but typicall we have to cut at least 3-4. Ofcourse this depends on the anatomy of the house.

 

[wbalsam1]

If there's a wide mopboard/baseboard, that's a great thing to remove and run cables behind and to place receptacles in. Then travel from there up to switch banks by the doors. Look for interior closets to gain access to the baseboards upstairs. :smile:

 

[electricalperson]

If there's a wide mopboard/baseboard, that's a great thing to remove and run cables behind and to place receptacles in. Then travel from there up to switch banks by the doors. Look for interior closets to gain access to the baseboards upstairs. :smile:

i was just about to post that. sometimes they have built in drawers in the wall that you can take out and cut a hole in the back of to fish too. i rewired a 2 story house with no crawl space and a 1 foot attic with just making one hole by searching for things to remove like that. they had a carpenter there that didnt mind it since he was there painting and things like that anyway

 

[tonyou812]

This can be a good customer if you dont scare them off. And those old plaster and houses can work to your benefit. Many times they dont have any insulation on the outer walls to contend with, you can pracitcaly just drop the wire in.

 

[stevenj76]

Those old houses have balloon framing.

This is where you can fish an exterior wall between stories.

That is, if there is no blocking.

 

[tonyou812]

Those old houses have balloon framing.

This is where you can fish an exterior wall between stories.

That is, if there is no blocking.

I just worked at a small balloon frame house to add a few floods and I thought I was gonna be there for a while. But all I had to do was cut in a box, and drop a line into the basement.

 

[electricalperson]

I just worked at a small balloon frame house to add a few floods and I thought I was gonna be there for a while. But all I had to do was cut in a box, and drop a line into the basement.

a lot of the houses ive worked in always had blocking. sometimes theres a few balloon frame. mostly the triple deckers in the city are like that

 

[tonyou812]

these houses were small arts and craft style home. smaller 2nd floor than 1st..

 

[Sharpie]

If there's a wide mopboard/baseboard, that's a great thing to remove and run cables behind and to place receptacles in. Then travel from there up to switch banks by the doors. Look for interior closets to gain access to the baseboards upstairs. :smile:

I have done this before. Depending on the shape of the plaster and how the baseboard was mounted, that can be a big mess in it's self.

There have really been a lot of good thoughts and suggestions here. Thanks everybody!

 

[steelersman]

Those old houses have balloon framing.

This is where you can fish an exterior wall between stories.

That is, if there is no blocking.

you mean stick built

 

[carlos cainas]

Keep the number for emergency medical services on speed dial because when you show her the estimate you may need it.

What I do on a rewire rather than waste a lot of time with estimates is come up with a kind of hypothetical base number of say 15-20K and ask if they can afford to spend that type of money ( a commitment for at least this amount is necessary even to start to come up with an estimate, the actual cost may be much higher). About half of the people will say something like " I knew it was going to get expensive, maybe 3K, but I couldn't possibly afford to spend 15K". This will let you know that you are not going to rewire the place and you can start to look at different options. Maybe a new service and a couple of circuits. Start a job that can be finished at a later date. A new service is a good start.

Another thing to check on is to see if they plan to do any major remodeling in the future. It's easier to work if the house is already torn apart by other trades and there is going to be patching and painting anyway. Your price for a rewire will look a lot better if a GC is responsible for all this patching and painting. Overall cost of a project can be deceptive, it adds up quick.

South Tampa Company charges 100 dollars a drop,two single poles switches 200 dollars and so on,you know they are going to make you up grade all the big loads since you are doing the panel the Dryer the Range because they only have 3 wires instead of 4 as per coed, i did a few houses a while back and it was no fun but its work,as far as I know these old house cant get new insurance policies because of the old wiring methods.

 

[Mule]

you mean stick built

Blocking is horizontal 2x4's that is placed between the wall studs for bracing and to slow down a fire trying to creep up the inside of walls, while the fire dept is trying to respond to the scene.

Balloon framing is a term that was used for multiple story units have no obstructions going up the side walls "no blocking" and the studs are tall going from floor to floor. Fireman call them "Balloon" framing because when they catch on fire, the go up like a balloon.