mbrooke
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What is the reasoning behind 445.20?
Reasoning?
- Thread starter mbrooke
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petersonra
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Discouraging 125/250 volt receptacles?
mbrooke
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Whats wrong with them?
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I would guess without reading the ROP that when the generator is used to supply a house via the 30 or 50 amp twist lock receptacle they don't want someone to be able to use the 15 or 20 amp receptacles without GFCI protection for those devices. That also means that when the twist lock is not used that those 15 and 20 amp devices will have GFCI protection since these generators are often setup for portable use in areas that would generally require GFCI protection from permanently installed 15 and 20 amp receptacles like outdoors.
Strathead
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To sell more GFCI breakers.
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- Illinois
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- retired electrician
13-19 Log #4418 NEC-P13 Final Action: Accept
(445.20)
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mark C. Ode, Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
Recommendation: Add new text to read as follows:
445.20. Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter Protection for Receptacles on 15 kW or Smaller, Portable Generators. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- 20-,and 30-ampere receptacle outlets, that are a part of a 15 kW or smaller, portable generator, shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel integral to the generator or receptacle.
Substantiation: Small portable generators, sized at 15 kW or smaller, are used for many different purposes, such as power on camping trips; on construction sites for temporary power for electrical equipment, such as table saws, pressure washers, and hand-held tools as well as lighting and similar purposes; for temporary connection of electrical circuits in a home or for small commercial buildings; and for power during emergency situations for all different types of installations due to natural disasters. In all of these applications, there are many potential hazards associated with these temporary installations, such as cut and abraded wire and cable, standing water and wet locations, and similar hazardous applications. During power outages from storms and other natural disasters, persons who may not be familiar with adequate safety procedures often use these generators to supply power in less than optimal conditions. Requiring all 125-volt, single phase, 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere on 15 kW or smaller generators to be integrally GFCI protected will help eliminate the possibilities of shock hazards from damaged circuits, damaged equipment, or use of equipment in wet locations.
This new section will ensure that portable generators will have adequate personnel protection for these receptacles wherever these generators are used. By limiting GFCI protection to only 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere, single phase, 120 volt circuits, these small generators can still be used for supplying standby power for non-GFCI protected 20-ampere, 30-ampere, and larger 120/240 single phase, 3-wire with ground as well as 3-phase circuits of all sizes for houses and small commercial buildings. Providing the proper transfer switch or transfer method with the proper compliance with the requirements in Article 250 for separately derived systems or non-separately derived systems is incumbent upon the installer of the system.
This proposal was developed by a Task Group composed of Task Group Chairman Paul Casparro and Chair of Panel 3 (NJATC); Jim Wiseman at Square D Schneider-Electric and Panel 15 (NEMA); John R. Kovacik with Underwriters Laboratories, Panels 10, 13 and the NEC TCC (UL); Richard Owen with City of St Paul, Minnesota, Panel 3, and the NEC TCC (IAEI); and Mark C. Ode with Underwriters Laboratories, Panels 3, 13, and the NEC TCC (UL).
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 14
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13 Negative: 1
Explanation of Negative:
CZARNECKI, N.: This proposal seeks to add GFCI protection to all 125V generator outlets without any substantiation that an issue exists at all levels. In order to establish a functional GFCI configuration on the generator, the generator is forced to be of the bonded neutral variety. Therefore, this proposal would have the effect of eliminating floating neutral generators used to power structures, non-separately derived standby systems, and transfer switches for non-separately derived systems. Eliminating such equipment will not enhance safety, but obsolete safe infrastructure already in place. Enhanced safety has not been accomplished and potentially compromised with users defeating the system by removing grounding connections to find a means to get power on in their home.
Comment on Affirmative: CARON, D.: Although I agree with the panel action, I am concerned over the apparently arbitrary size of ?15 kW or Smaller?. If GFCI devices are proven to increase safety for these types of generators, then they should be required for any size generator with integral receptacles.
(445.20)
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mark C. Ode, Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
Recommendation: Add new text to read as follows:
445.20. Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter Protection for Receptacles on 15 kW or Smaller, Portable Generators. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- 20-,and 30-ampere receptacle outlets, that are a part of a 15 kW or smaller, portable generator, shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel integral to the generator or receptacle.
Substantiation: Small portable generators, sized at 15 kW or smaller, are used for many different purposes, such as power on camping trips; on construction sites for temporary power for electrical equipment, such as table saws, pressure washers, and hand-held tools as well as lighting and similar purposes; for temporary connection of electrical circuits in a home or for small commercial buildings; and for power during emergency situations for all different types of installations due to natural disasters. In all of these applications, there are many potential hazards associated with these temporary installations, such as cut and abraded wire and cable, standing water and wet locations, and similar hazardous applications. During power outages from storms and other natural disasters, persons who may not be familiar with adequate safety procedures often use these generators to supply power in less than optimal conditions. Requiring all 125-volt, single phase, 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere on 15 kW or smaller generators to be integrally GFCI protected will help eliminate the possibilities of shock hazards from damaged circuits, damaged equipment, or use of equipment in wet locations.
This new section will ensure that portable generators will have adequate personnel protection for these receptacles wherever these generators are used. By limiting GFCI protection to only 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere, single phase, 120 volt circuits, these small generators can still be used for supplying standby power for non-GFCI protected 20-ampere, 30-ampere, and larger 120/240 single phase, 3-wire with ground as well as 3-phase circuits of all sizes for houses and small commercial buildings. Providing the proper transfer switch or transfer method with the proper compliance with the requirements in Article 250 for separately derived systems or non-separately derived systems is incumbent upon the installer of the system.
This proposal was developed by a Task Group composed of Task Group Chairman Paul Casparro and Chair of Panel 3 (NJATC); Jim Wiseman at Square D Schneider-Electric and Panel 15 (NEMA); John R. Kovacik with Underwriters Laboratories, Panels 10, 13 and the NEC TCC (UL); Richard Owen with City of St Paul, Minnesota, Panel 3, and the NEC TCC (IAEI); and Mark C. Ode with Underwriters Laboratories, Panels 3, 13, and the NEC TCC (UL).
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 14
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13 Negative: 1
Explanation of Negative:
CZARNECKI, N.: This proposal seeks to add GFCI protection to all 125V generator outlets without any substantiation that an issue exists at all levels. In order to establish a functional GFCI configuration on the generator, the generator is forced to be of the bonded neutral variety. Therefore, this proposal would have the effect of eliminating floating neutral generators used to power structures, non-separately derived standby systems, and transfer switches for non-separately derived systems. Eliminating such equipment will not enhance safety, but obsolete safe infrastructure already in place. Enhanced safety has not been accomplished and potentially compromised with users defeating the system by removing grounding connections to find a means to get power on in their home.
Comment on Affirmative: CARON, D.: Although I agree with the panel action, I am concerned over the apparently arbitrary size of ?15 kW or Smaller?. If GFCI devices are proven to increase safety for these types of generators, then they should be required for any size generator with integral receptacles.
iceworm
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Yeah, I saw that. New for 2014. Reminded me of North Carolina generator connection enforcement squad. This must just tickle them pink. Perhaps I have a new moron code section of the month.
Thanks to Don for attaching the ROP.
Submitted by UL.
I suspect the UL was not getting any traction with their edict on bonding/GFI. There was no reason to buy a UL listed gen set, unnless the state mandated one shall buy listed generators. With this now in the NEC, the UL can count on the AHJ to enforce - probably the same group that checks on residential smoothing iron stands and coffee cup water heaters.
At least one code panel member had it figure out - and wrote a well reasoned response:
CZARNECKI said:
CZ - you are dead-on. I'm glad at least one person on the code panel was paying attention.
ice
mbrooke
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So, wait, could separately derived vs non separately derived be a factor in this?
If I cut the jumper of the generator, in theory I have a floating system. Since its floating, I loose my neutral reference, and in such a case a GFCI would be of value should I grasp the shell of a screw socket?
I know that's a bit off from what is mentioned above, but the logic is still a bit fuzzy on my part.
The logic is fuzzy, period. It's obvious not everyone considers GFCI protection as beneficial. Only those that do not would consider bringing up a reason against required GFCI protection.
mbrooke
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I would require them on all gensets, but why get 120/240 plugs into the mix. What makes having such safer or more dangerous when 120 volt outlets are present?
IMO I think this has to be one of the dumbest code additions ever.
mbrooke
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The substantiation could have been written a tad better, but the guys intent is very well rooted in real world scenarios. However, I do see the issue brought up in the negative... then again I don't... though ironically a GFCI might solve it.
There are many non GFCI generators that are neutral bonded, in fact I see most Twist lock generators with a bonded neutral feeding a home even though yes it violates separately derived. And in theory, if all generators had GFCIs, from an electrical theory perspective a floating neutral would not be an issue since a 5ma leakage would still trip it should a screw shell get touched. Of course you might trip a neighboring GFCI by chance as Id think they are non directional but the user would still be protected. (Think a 60-0-60 volt audio system with GFCIs)
In any case I think it better to require all generators to have GFCI protection with 120 volt 15 and 20amp receptacles. This would force neutral bonding (anyone know the code section?)
Personally Id remedy this 2 ways:
1. Require a switch for every generator to break the bond if powering a home (or an interlock with the twist lock)
or
2. Make an exemption to the separately derived rules for portable generators under emergency applications.
#2 Sounds insane, but I see literally more bonded neutral generators powering homes in outages then unboned ones without known issues to me.
Im guessing that perhaps this is what they were trying to accomplish in the code to some degree... but failed. Currently the way the rule is written makes no sense. I mean it sounds like most generators will now have GFCIs, so why no require them even without the twist lock?
iceworm
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(Slow poster - edit to add) Following mb's last post:
Yep really fuzzy
The adopted code section does not read the same as the ROP. (Yes Captain Obvious, we all saw that)
The proposal demanded GFCI on all 125V 15A - 30A - no exceptions
The adopted rule:
Still mandates GFCI on all 125V 15A - 30A - no exceptions.
However, if the 125/250V receptacle is in use, the GFCI protected receptacles shall be disabled (Yes Captain - we're still with you)
My translation:
The code panel is allowing for a generator, (15kw or less), that automatically disables the GFCI protected receptacles, and opens the Gen N-G bond, anytime one connects to the 125/250V receptacle. Yes, I'm aware it does not say that. I don't see any other avenue.
Q: Does anyone know if there are current production generators that will do this? Me thinks this may only be a current design in vapor space.
Without the availability of the new design equipment, as CZ said, the rule essentially bans floating neutral generators.
ice
Yep really fuzzy
The adopted code section does not read the same as the ROP. (Yes Captain Obvious, we all saw that)
The proposal demanded GFCI on all 125V 15A - 30A - no exceptions
The adopted rule:
Still mandates GFCI on all 125V 15A - 30A - no exceptions.
However, if the 125/250V receptacle is in use, the GFCI protected receptacles shall be disabled (Yes Captain - we're still with you)
My translation:
The code panel is allowing for a generator, (15kw or less), that automatically disables the GFCI protected receptacles, and opens the Gen N-G bond, anytime one connects to the 125/250V receptacle. Yes, I'm aware it does not say that. I don't see any other avenue.
Q: Does anyone know if there are current production generators that will do this? Me thinks this may only be a current design in vapor space.
Without the availability of the new design equipment, as CZ said, the rule essentially bans floating neutral generators.
ice
Last edited:
Because the submitter (a guy from Reliance Controls) of the comment that was accepted in principle and the CMP are attempting to make it idiot proof... impossible as that may be.
Especially after appending the last sentence. They should have just stuck with making 125V 15A & 20A receptacles required to be GFCI... period.
Curious to see the public inputs for 2017...
iceworm
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I figured it was driven by UL13-19 Log #4418 NEC-P13 Final Action: Accept (445.20) said:
Or not. Just leave it alone. Let the states determine if listed generators are required. The gen is not part of the premisis wiring.
Of course I also think the NEC should get out of the design business and end their authority at the receptacle.
ice
iceworm
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mbrooke
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I would say you are correct
at least that's my interpretation. But the way its written leaves a lot to be desired.Out of curiosity, why would a GFCI force a bonded neutral? Heck, can a generator even be sold unbonded with just 125 volt outlets?
mbrooke
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Same here. Its all backwards. I don't think they even tried to idiot proof: Twist lock forces GFCI but not having one eliminates it, if anything the opposite since a non twist lock generator will near 100% of the time be used for portable applications like construction sites where GFCI is much more essential. I cant see a guy powering his house needing a GFCI as much. :blink::?:blink:
If they want to eliminate improper SDS for generators they should just be blunt or wave the SDS for portable units.
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Note, that I posted the ROP from the 2011 cycle. Also, while the proposal was submitted by a UL rep, it was a "task group" and not a UL proposal.
iceworm
Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
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I don't think you're reading that right. The way I read it, only a gennie with twist lock recept' is required to have GFCI 15 & 20A receptacles... but if an interlock (neither mechanical or electrical is specified) defeats their availability while the twist lock is in use, GFCI is not required. If no twist lock, no GFCI is required.
IOW, for any portable generator up to 15kW with a 125/250V twist-lock receptacle, all 15- & 20A 125V receptacles must either be GFCI-protected or unusable while the twist-lock is in use.
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