Receptacle for TV in the Kitchen

[Pierre C Belarge]

Can a receptacle for a TV that is placed on a shelf above the countertop (part of the upper cabinets) be installed using 14AWG NM cable, supplied by a 15 ampere rated circuit breaker?
The receptacle will be located approximetely 6 feet above the finished floor.

 

[kwired]

why not? this is not in the area required by the small appliance branch circuits. However I find it is usually more cost effective to connect it to one of the SABC's and the TV installed in this situation usually has a fairly small load.

 

[ivsenroute]

Yes, I do not see why not. It does not serve the countertop in my opinon.

There can be an argument that AFCI protection would be required under 210.12(B) since it can be deemed to be in a "similar room or area" per the 2008 NEC.

 

[480sparky]

I don't think so.

SABCs are not limited to just the c'tops.

210.52(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

 

[kwired]

I don't think so.

SABCs are not limited to just the c'tops.

210.52(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

I change my position and agree with you, I posted my reply and then started having second thoughts then saw your post and totally had second thoughts.

I do believe there is an exception for clock receptcales (does anyone ever install these for an actual clock anymore?) or for gas ranges or am I thinking that these items are permitted on one of the SABC which I guess still means they would not be required on one of the SABC. confused yet?

 

[480sparky]

I change my position and agree with you, I posted my reply and then started having second thoughts then saw your post and totally had second thoughts.

I do believe there is an exception for clock receptcales (does anyone ever install these for an actual clock anymore?) or for gas ranges or am I thinking that these items are permitted on one of the SABC which I guess still means they would not be required on one of the SABC. confused yet?

Here's the exceptions:

Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

Not sure when the clock outlet exception was deleted, but it was probably due to the fact that no one installs them any more.

 

[TT009]

But isnt the counter tops recept. supplying the SABC's suppose to be less than 20"? What about the disposal or diswasher? They dont have to be on the SABC or even on a 20A circuit. Right?

Now with the new AFCI code does everything in the kitchen have to be protected? To me a kitchen is not of a similar room/ area then what they listed.

What I dont get is why you have to serve the dining room with you SABC and AFCI protect it. We are going to start protecting everything so much that we wont beable to turn a light on.

 

[TT009]

Here's the exceptions:

Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

Not sure when the clock outlet exception was deleted, but it was probably due to the fact that no one installs them any more.

Check out 210.52 (B) (2) exception 1

I guess batteries have not phased out the good 'ol "common" electric clock

 

[480sparky]

But isnt the counter tops recept. supplying the SABC's suppose to be less than 20"? What about the disposal or diswasher? They dont have to be on the SABC or even on a 20A circuit. Right?

SABC 101:
210.11(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).
210.52(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

Now with the new AFCI code does everything in the kitchen have to be protected? To me a kitchen is not of a similar room/ area then what they listed.

What I dont get is why you have to serve the dining room with you SABC and AFCI protect it. We are going to start protecting everything so much that we wont beable to turn a light on.

ACFI 101:

210.12(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

You will notice the places that require GFCI protection (kitchens, bathrooms, outside, garages, unfinished basements, etc) are not listed.

Check out 210.52 (B) (2) exception 1

I guess batteries have not phased out the good 'ol "common" electric clock

Yea, I just noticed that.

 

[kwired]

But isnt the counter tops recept. supplying the SABC's suppose to be less than 20"? What about the disposal or diswasher? They dont have to be on the SABC or even on a 20A circuit. Right?

Now with the new AFCI code does everything in the kitchen have to be protected? To me a kitchen is not of a similar room/ area then what they listed.

What I dont get is why you have to serve the dining room with you SABC and AFCI protect it. We are going to start protecting everything so much that we wont beable to turn a light on.

The disposal and dishwasher usually end up on a separate circuit bacause of
210.23 (A)(2) (2005 NEC)

(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.

 

[TT009]

210.52 is the requirement for outlets in addition to: outlets above 5 1/2 feet or in cabinets, so you would be ok with a 15A circuit in a kitchen as long as you were in a cabinet or above 5 1/2 feet.

Thus, the reason why (along with 210.23, kwired) you can supply a microwave, or other appliances with only a 15A circuit.

Would they have to be AFCI protected?

 

[rikthejman]

Sounds like a good idea. Jump off the lighting/plug circuit close by, it has AFCI protection, right? As long as you are more than 20" above countertop (210.52(C)(5) they are not required to be on S/A circuit. And 210.52(B)(2) will not allow the circuit to supply the receptacle unless it is for a clock or a gas range/cooktop and its controls. I guess you could say the outlet was for a clock and use the S/A circuit.:roll:

 

[rikthejman]

210.52 is the requirement for outlets in addition to: outlets above 5 1/2 feet or in cabinets, so you would be ok with a 15A circuit in a kitchen as long as you were in a cabinet or above 5 1/2 feet.

Thus, the reason why (along with 210.23, kwired) you can supply a microwave, or other appliances with only a 15A circuit.

Would they have to be AFCI protected?

You should probably not supply a microwave hood combo with any less than a 20A circuit. Bigger ones pull a steady 14-15 Amps. Most dishwashers OK on a 15A. Disposal OK on 15A. If you do receptacles for the disposal a 20A circuit good in case HO adds an Insta-hot later.

 

[M. D.]

In my opinion if you put it on the SABC you would have a violation ,.. if this receptacle outlet is not a required one,.. and I don't think it is...
It does not sound like wall space and it appears not to serve the countertop.

210.11(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

210.52(B) Small Appliances.

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Exception No. 1:
In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

Exception No. 2:
The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

(2) No Other Outlets.
The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

 

[ivsenroute]

I am holding steady on my interpretation and opinion that the answer to the OP's question would yes, it is allowed and it can be 15A.

1) It is not a small appliance branch circuit
2) It does not serve the counter top
3) It fits nicely under 210.52 and 210.52(3) &(4) since it is more than 5-1/2' above the floor and located within cabinetry.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Do we not install receptacles inside cabinets for low voltage undercounter lights? They are usually on a 15 amp circuit.

 

[TT009]

You should probably not supply a microwave hood combo with any less than a 20A circuit. Bigger ones pull a steady 14-15 Amps. Most dishwashers OK on a 15A. Disposal OK on 15A. If you do receptacles for the disposal a 20A circuit good in case HO adds an Insta-hot later.

Sorry The microwave was a bad example. I always pull a dedicated 20A to microwaves.

What I was trying to get across is that as long as the receptacle/s are more than 5 1/2' from the floor, or 20" above a counter, or in a cabinet, or serving a fixed appliance there is no requirements to apply them to the SABC.

However you would have to size your branch circuits accordingly.

 

[jaylectricity]

What I dont get is why you have to serve the dining room with you SABC and AFCI protect it. We are going to start protecting everything so much that we wont beable to turn a light on.

You can put the dining room on its own circuit. You aren't limited to 2 SABC. You hcan have 4 if you need it. And one of those can supply the dining room alone.

 

[charlie b]

I don't think so. SABCs are not limited to just the c'tops.

210.52(B) Small Appliances. . . the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A). . . .

I disagree. The receptacle under question is not covered by 210.52(A). How do we know? Because 210.52 (prior to sub paragraph A) says so. So I believe you can use a 15 amp circuit for this application.

 

[rikthejman]

210.12(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

You will notice the places that require GFCI protection (kitchens, bathrooms, outside, garages, unfinished basements, etc) are not listed.


I noticed this a while ago and it begs a question, why is dining room mentioned in both the AFCI and SABC requirements. If you were to continue a kitchen countertop branch circuit down to cover the outlets in the dining rm. (very common) then it would have GFCI protection unless you wired it different to not include the dining room outlets as GFCI protected. At the same time are you protecting this with an AFCI/GFCI combo breaker or another alternative?

Reason I am asking is Oregon did not adopt the AFCI rule and I don't have to deal with this. Don't ask I just live here!!:grin: