Receptacle grounding

[mccayry]

So I met with a customer the other day that had some outlets in the kitchen not working. As I removed the gfci receptacle I noticed that the neutral was bonded to the ground. After talking with the homeowner I found out he had just purchased the house and one of the items on the contract was that the sellers had to ground all the receptacles. Evidently they got some hack in there to basically fake the home inspector into thinking that they were grounded. I guess they should have figured that out when it only cost $65 for the guy to ground them:thumbsdown: We went through the entire house and all the receptacles were wired this way. My thought was to just run a ground wire from each receptacle but after talking with AHJ he informed me that if he had to get involved he would not be able to pass that. So, basically we would have to rewire all the receptacles back to the panel which is fine by me $$$$$ I was just curious about this and wanted some feedback. Thanks in advance.

 

[user 100]

So I met with a customer the other day that had some outlets in the kitchen not working. As I removed the gfci receptacle I noticed that the neutral was bonded to the ground. After talking with the homeowner I found out he had just purchased the house and one of the items on the contract was that the sellers had to ground all the receptacles. Evidently they got some hack in there to basically fake the home inspector into thinking that they were grounded. I guess they should have figured that out when it only cost $65 for the guy to ground them:thumbsdown: We went through the entire house and all the receptacles were wired this way. My thought was to just run a ground wire from each receptacle but after talking with AHJ he informed me that if he had to get involved he would not be able to pass that. So, basically we would have to rewire all the receptacles back to the panel which is fine by me $$$$$ I was just curious about this and wanted some feedback. Thanks in advance.

250.130(C) makes the separate egc legal- but if grounding more than a few recs, imo its not worth it. You might as well replace the wiring completely-your irritation and labor is going to be the same-if you can get a #12 or 14 single solid in there, you can fish a new 12/2 or 14/2 nm.

And don't forget there is also the gfci allowance for ng rec replacement in 406, allowing you to leave the existing wiring- although considering it has been already "compromised" by a trunk slammer and there is no telling what else he hacked on, might be best to just replace everything.

 

[JFletcher]

Tennessee is on the IBC, and perhaps not even the 2012 edition until next month. May be able to get by with GFCI receptacles and 2 prong replacements (Im guessing the house has cloth 2 wire NM). Bootlegged grounds are seriously bad and need to go.

 

[GerryB]

So I met with a customer the other day that had some outlets in the kitchen not working. As I removed the gfci receptacle I noticed that the neutral was bonded to the ground. After talking with the homeowner I found out he had just purchased the house and one of the items on the contract was that the sellers had to ground all the receptacles. Evidently they got some hack in there to basically fake the home inspector into thinking that they were grounded. I guess they should have figured that out when it only cost $65 for the guy to ground them:thumbsdown: We went through the entire house and all the receptacles were wired this way. My thought was to just run a ground wire from each receptacle but after talking with AHJ he informed me that if he had to get involved he would not be able to pass that. So, basically we would have to rewire all the receptacles back to the panel which is fine by me $$$$$ I was just curious about this and wanted some feedback. Thanks in advance.

I would think the new owners would have some recourse here. Whenever I fixed items on a HI report I always had to give a bill with my license number on it, etc.

 

[mgookin]

I would think the new owners would have some recourse here. Whenever I fixed items on a HI report I always had to give a bill with my license number on it, etc.

I was thinking the same thing but I have no idea what kind of licensing requirements TN has. Do they even have any requirements at all? If that were around here and it happened to someone I know you can bet there would be a price to pay, probably by the HI, trunkslammer and the seller. Florida has very tough regulation as it should. Between the gyspies ripping off old people to the corruption which existed pre-Andrew, I think we were the first in the nation to require state licensing of inspectors, the toughest contracting licensing regulations, etc.

OP never said with very much specificity what he was looking at. Is the box metal or plastic? What feeds the box? Just how are the noodle & ground bonded?
A picture would speak at least 3 sentences.

 

[mccayry]

View attachment 15290
Here is a picture of one of the receptacles. I don't have a problem with running new wire. The boxes are mainly metal ones and we usually just cut them out and install mm boxes to give us more room. Unordered to run new wire we would probably run everything underneath the house and then have to find a chase to get them up in the attic. The panel is located in the garage on a concrete slab.

 

[user 100]

View attachment 15290
Here is a picture of one of the receptacles. I don't have a problem with running new wire. The boxes are mainly metal ones and we usually just cut them out and install mm boxes to give us more room. Unordered to run new wire we would probably run everything underneath the house and then have to find a chase to get them up in the attic. The panel is located in the garage on a concrete slab.

Well, on the bright side, if you decide to keep the old wiring ,it appears there is enough of the old conductor in that one box to play with.

Whats above the panel in the garage? Is (or how is) the House connected to the garage?

 

[mccayry]

Well, on the bright side, if you decide to keep the old wiring ,it appears there is enough of the old conductor in that one box to play with.

Whats above the panel in the garage? Is (or how is) the House connected to the garage?

The garage is connected to the house but it is on a slab so we would have to come in from the top.

 

[user 100]

The garage is connected to the house but it is on a slab so we would have to come in from the top.

Right- and if there is a common attic (or a big enough connection) between the garage and house, you have your path straight from panel to house to run nm and you shouldn't have to go underneath the house. Get into attic space over the house section and drop everything down.

 

[JFletcher]

That appears to be new conductors... where is the original ground, cut flush with the jacket? Saw another violation that wouldnt pass here: box is recessed in a wooden wall. Those box extenders get pricey if you have to use any number of 'em.

Also missed in the original post that the GFCI outlet had a bootlegged ground. That's a dedicated hack.

 

[mgookin]

View attachment 15290
Here is a picture of one of the receptacles. I don't have a problem with running new wire. The boxes are mainly metal ones and we usually just cut them out and install mm boxes to give us more room. Unordered to run new wire we would probably run everything underneath the house and then have to find a chase to get them up in the attic. The panel is located in the garage on a concrete slab.

How do the black & white get to the box? Is that NM, EMT, FMC or what?

I blew it up 400% but can't tell. I see something at the white but it's not clear.

 

[ggunn]

View attachment 15290
Here is a picture of one of the receptacles. I don't have a problem with running new wire. The boxes are mainly metal ones and we usually just cut them out and install mm boxes to give us more room. Unordered to run new wire we would probably run everything underneath the house and then have to find a chase to get them up in the attic. The panel is located in the garage on a concrete slab.

How does anyone consider this outlet to be grounded? The hack would have been better off just connecting a bare copper conductor to the green screw and shoving the other end of it out of the back of the box into the wall.

 

[JFletcher]

How does anyone consider this outlet to be grounded? The hack would have been better off just connecting a bare copper conductor to the green screw and shoving the other end of it out of the back of the box into the wall.

No one does, but it will fool a plug tester. I'm surprised that if 'no grounds at receptacles' was written up as a prior deficiency, an inspector didnt pull a few cover plates and receptacles to see how that deficiency was corrected.

Bare copper shoved into the wall still would have showed no ground.

 

[user 100]

No one does, but it will fool a plug tester. I'm surprised that if 'no grounds at receptacles' was written up as a prior deficiency, an inspector didnt pull a few cover plates and receptacles to see how that deficiency was corrected.

Bare copper shoved into the wall still would have showed no ground.

Not to turn this into a hi bashing thread, but they are often less than thorough- not being aware of this type of fix to "fake the egc" and/or just taking the ho/hacks word for it instead of actually checking. Or knowing this shenanigan goes on in older res sales, but just not caring.- it did show grounded didn't it?

 

[FE427TP]

I'd be telling the homeowner it's time to get their attorney involved. If part of the sales contract was to make those repairs and they were not made and in fact there was deliberate effort to fool the home inspector and increase their profit margin in the sale. The previous homeowner will be coughing up $$$ to make the repairs.

 

[mccayry]

I'd be telling the homeowner it's time to get their attorney involved. If part of the sales contract was to make those repairs and they were not made and in fact there was deliberate effort to fool the home inspector and increase their profit margin in the sale. The previous homeowner will be coughing up $$$ to make the repairs.

The sellers have agreed to pay for the repairs. You'd of thought the sellers would have been a little more concerned with the repairs when the hack only charged $65.:slaphead: