receptacle replacement
- Thread starter Ponchik
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Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Technically yes.
Even a Kitchen if you are on the 2014 NEC!
Even a Kitchen if you are on the 2014 NEC!
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
Thankfully we are not on the 2014 code, and I dont believe this requirement exists in the 2015 IRC (which we will likely adopt July this year), so no, VA doesnt have to do it.
There are about 15 states not on the 2014, so the answer depends largely on where you are doing the work.
406.D(2)(a) permits a 2 prong receptacle to replace a 2 prong receptacle.
Look at the exception for installing GFCI receptacles:
Exception: Where replacement of the receptacle type is impracticable, such as where the outlet box size will not permit the installation of the GFCI receptacle, the receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with a new receptacle of the existing type, where GFCI protection is provided and the receptacle is marked “GFCI protected” and “no equipment ground,” in accordance with 406.4(D)(2)(a), (b), or (c)
Tells me that cutting out an old, undersized box is not required, if you can put a GFCI breaker in the panel, or GFCI receptacle upstream of the one you want to change out. No similar exception exists for AFCI, so if it wont fit, you have to cut it out or use an AFCI breaker, which dont exist for many older panels. There's also the whole "readily accessible" thing, so older outlets that are not readily accessible, how do you deal with those?
Tell me what gets done more often: receptacle/breaker is changed out for AFCI and/or GFCI type, new box installed, any/all neutrals of different circuits tied together get untied, and life is good (and the customer's wallet is ~$500+ lighter), or the receptacle is changed out for an existing type?
The Code is too far reaching here imo.
Last year, I changed out all the light switches and 2 prong receptacles in my mothers/aunts joint house for the same. It sold last week. Last month when the HI inspected it, not a word of his *VERY* thorough report made any mention of AFCI protection.
There are about 15 states not on the 2014, so the answer depends largely on where you are doing the work.
406.D(2)(a) permits a 2 prong receptacle to replace a 2 prong receptacle.
Look at the exception for installing GFCI receptacles:
Exception: Where replacement of the receptacle type is impracticable, such as where the outlet box size will not permit the installation of the GFCI receptacle, the receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with a new receptacle of the existing type, where GFCI protection is provided and the receptacle is marked “GFCI protected” and “no equipment ground,” in accordance with 406.4(D)(2)(a), (b), or (c)
Tells me that cutting out an old, undersized box is not required, if you can put a GFCI breaker in the panel, or GFCI receptacle upstream of the one you want to change out. No similar exception exists for AFCI, so if it wont fit, you have to cut it out or use an AFCI breaker, which dont exist for many older panels. There's also the whole "readily accessible" thing, so older outlets that are not readily accessible, how do you deal with those?
Tell me what gets done more often: receptacle/breaker is changed out for AFCI and/or GFCI type, new box installed, any/all neutrals of different circuits tied together get untied, and life is good (and the customer's wallet is ~$500+ lighter), or the receptacle is changed out for an existing type?
The Code is too far reaching here imo.
Last year, I changed out all the light switches and 2 prong receptacles in my mothers/aunts joint house for the same. It sold last week. Last month when the HI inspected it, not a word of his *VERY* thorough report made any mention of AFCI protection.
If feasible, you can also put a gfci/afci receptacle that is fed from old non afci compatible panel right beside/ underneath the panel and refeed old circuit thru that after replacing old 2w device.
From a code and liability perspective, yes, you should follow the good book.
From a practical and realistic perspective, this is one rule that gets skipped, a lot.
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
Basically the 2015 IRC has the same requirements as the NEC 2014 -- not the NEC 2017. So GFCI protection is required for all recepts within 6' of sinks (there is not a cord path or barrier measurement mentioned)
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
The 2012 we're on must have some state amendments then. AFCI for example are still only for bedroom outlets, nowhere else. VA might look at the 2017, see the barrier mention, and adopt that in, thus skipping the 2014 NEC rule on them. or as sometimes is possible, the inspector will allow it if it's approved in the next code cycle.
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