Receptacles for kitchen if no countertop

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fandi

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Electrical Engineer
Hello All,
Space is tight for an ADU (accessory dwelling unit) so on one 9ft long wall I have (a) 3ft wide refrigerator one one end, (b) 2.5ft wide gas stove in the middle and (c) 3ft wide sink at the other end (wall corner). So the line up takes up almost 9ft of the wall. No countertop in this case as 3ft clearance in front of the sink is needed to move around. Are countertop receptacles required if the countertop does not exist?

Thanks.
 
jumper said:
Run a power pole and plant it in the middle of the kitchen table?:D

Okay, seriously- no countertop areas at all?

I have no clue how to address this. Portable island?
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Since the sink is at the corner, I can build a countertop (if NEC insist a countertop is a must have) just right outside of that 3ft sink front clearance to place microwave and appliances. This countertop will be on the wall perpendicular with the wall that has the freezer-range-sink lineup.
 
fandi said:
Since the sink is at the corner, I can build a countertop just right outside of that 3ft sink front clearance to place microwave and appliances. This countertop will be on the wall perpendicular with the wall that has the freezer-range-sink lineup.
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That works. Code would require 2 SABCs. One MWBC and a couple of GFCI recs and you are good to go. Wall space recs in this area can be on these circuits, fridge too if you desire.

NEC does not require a counter, IRC prolly does.
 
jumper said:
That works. Code would require 2 SABCs. One MWBC and a couple of GFCI recs and you are good to go. Wall space recs in this area can be on these circuits, fridge too if you desire.

NEC does not require a counter, IRC prolly does.
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You're the best.
 
jumper said:
That works. Code would require 2 SABCs. One MWBC and a couple of GFCI recs and you are good to go. Wall space recs in this area can be on these circuits, fridge too if you desire.

NEC does not require a counter, IRC prolly does.
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Mod, I read at 210.52(B)(2) that the 2 circuits for small appliances shall have no other outlets so I don't know if other receptacles on that countertop wall can be on those 2 ckts, too?
 
You need 2 small appliance branch circuit that end up on the counter top however if there is no workspace in the kitchen then how is anyone going to be able to use appliance or anything. You may have to put them on the end of the cabinet
 
fandi said:
Hello All,
Space is tight for an ADU (accessory dwelling unit) so on one 9ft long wall I have (a) 3ft wide refrigerator one one end, (b) 2.5ft wide gas stove in the middle and (c) 3ft wide sink at the other end (wall corner). So the line up takes up almost 9ft of the wall. No countertop in this case as 3ft clearance in front of the sink is needed to move around. Are countertop receptacles required if the countertop does not exist?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by ADU?

Does the thing meet definition of a dwelling unit?

Is it an accessory building on same property as a dwelling unit?
 
jumper said:
Think "mother in law apartment".
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I was, but still need to know if the thing meets the definition of a dwelling unit - if it doesn't then SABC's are not even required.

I see many more hunting/fishing "bunk houses" most of which don't fully meet dwelling unit definition then I see "mother in law apartments"
 
Does this room even meet the NEC definition of kitchen? I think not.
An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.
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Since this mentions "food preparation" and "cooking" separately, I infer that what you might do with the stove does not qualify as "food preparation." Absent a countertop surface, the space lacks any provisions for food preparation. If there is no kitchen, then there is no requirement for any SABC.

Now, you can add a countertop and two SABCs and make the space more useful for the tenant. But that was not the original question.
 
charlie b said:
Does this room even meet the NEC definition of kitchen? I think not. Since this mentions "food preparation" and "cooking" separately, I infer that what you might do with the stove does not qualify as "food preparation." Absent a countertop surface, the space lacks any provisions for food preparation. If there is no kitchen, then there is no requirement for any SABC.

Now, you can add a countertop and two SABCs and make the space more useful for the tenant. But that was not the original question.
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If it does not have a "kitchen", it is not a legal ADU.
 
If it had no counter-top or counter-top spaces less than 12" it would still require the two SABC's for the wall receptacles.
 
The NEC requires small appliance branch circuits in a kitchen.

It also has receptacle spacing requirements for counters.

If you have no counters, then as a _design issue_ I would do my best to guess where people would actually use appliances and put receptacles in those locations.

For example the tenants might put a table on the opposite wall from the '9 foot row' and then put a toaster on that table.

Or they might put shelves over the sink and range and put appliances there.

Or they might put a microwave on top of the fridge.

Do your best to guess where appliances will go, and put receptacles to reach those locations

-Jon
 
winnie said:
The NEC requires small appliance branch circuits in a kitchen.

It also has receptacle spacing requirements for counters.

If you have no counters, then as a _design issue_ I would do my best to guess where people would actually use appliances and put receptacles in those locations.

For example the tenants might put a table on the opposite wall from the '9 foot row' and then put a toaster on that table.

Or they might put shelves over the sink and range and put appliances there.

Or they might put a microwave on top of the fridge.

Do your best to guess where appliances will go, and put receptacles to reach those locations

-Jon
Click to expand...

Yes, there's a 2'x2' countertop now.
 
fandi said:
Yes, there's a 2'x2' countertop now.
Click to expand...

Ah good. I was just getting ready to respond to the others.

While the NEC does not mandate counter top space, somewhere I will bet that there is a minimum area needed. More on that in a sec.

The NEC does say say permenant provisions for preparation, basically a sink to wash and a countertop to chop, slice, set or whatever.

The fridge and range/cooktop for storage and heating.

Okay back to counter area.

I found a few references/sites that used a lot of unenforceable terms like needed, the norm, generally provided and such. Not what I want.

However, more than one spoke of a minimum of 36" x 24" required for preparation. Could not find a model code reference.

Whether this rule exists in a model code or is generally adopted state/local
IDK, but I am gonna say no AHJ is going to pass a dwelling unit kitchen without some counter area.

A straight electrical inspector might, but a combo one or some building official is more than likely to say do not pass go and no collecting the 200 dollars either.

I would be calling building dept if I were you.
 
charlie b said:
Does this room even meet the NEC definition of kitchen? I think not. Since this mentions "food preparation" and "cooking" separately, I infer that what you might do with the stove does not qualify as "food preparation." Absent a countertop surface, the space lacks any provisions for food preparation. If there is no kitchen, then there is no requirement for any SABC.

Now, you can add a countertop and two SABCs and make the space more useful for the tenant. But that was not the original question.
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I like that approach at this. A table is not permanent - the definition says permanent. Preparation on the floor isn't considered acceptable for sanitation reasons, won't get into the fact some floors might be cleaner then some counters though.:blink:

No provisions for preparation - no kitchen, no kitchen - no dwelling unit and no SABC's required.
 
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