Receptacles in ceilings

[ryan_618]

I have been considering proposing a code change for the 2008 cycle and would like your opinions and thoughts on it.

406.3(G) Locations not permitted.
Receptacle outlets shall not be installed in dropped or suspended ceilings.

Many times, as an inspector, I see these installed. It is quite obvious that eventually article 400.8 will be violated, unfortunatley it occurs after I final the building.

 

[ron]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

I guess this would be to clarify/supplement the understanding of 400.8(5)?
Some I have chatted with, including myself (I often chat with myself) understand 400.8(5) to mean flex cords and cables can be used above a suspended ceiling unless the suspended ceiling renders the cord/cable concealed. Concealed is defined as inaccessible by the structure or finish of the building.
A normal suspended ceiling does not render the cord/cable inaccessible, hence flex cord/cable is permitted above a normal suspended ceiling.

So I would suggest that your code change would change the meaning of the current code, not clarify the existing.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

Ron,
Are you looking at the '99 or '02 code? 400.8(5) was clarified in the '02 code. I have quoted the '02 code and then the '99 code below. In the '99 code cords could be above a suspended ceiling, but not under the '02 code.

(5) Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings

5. Where concealed behind building walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors

Don

 

[ron]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

Unfortunately I was looking at 2002. The operative word that fuels the problem is concealed. Grammatically, the word concealed in the beginning of the sentence seams to also describe the words "or located above suspended or dropped ceilings".
From the handbook (of course not the bible, but at least some reference), it says:
".... concealed behind building walls, floors or ceilings (including structural, suspended or dropped-type ceilings.)" In that quote, the handbook infers that the word concealed describes a suspended ceiling too.

[ September 03, 2003, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: ron ]

 

[jerryb]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

To return to Ryan's original question: The wording of a new code paragraph would have to be done very carefully. You original talked about receptacles "in" the ceiling, but what you really meant was receptacles "above" the ceiling.

I have always been a little concerned about this type of installation. But we need to remember that the owner or a contractor does not always plug a flexible cord into this receptacle. Quit often a communcations or security contractor will request a receptacle above an accessible ceiling so that he can plug in his DC power converter for special equipment that he is installing. He then runs 6, 9, or 12 DC volt wiring from the converter to the equipment. Would this be a code violation?

 

[gregoryelectricinc]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

I agree with Jery. Be careful with the wording of your proposal. While I "generally" agree that outlets should not be above a suspended ceiling, I have installed them for the security/data needs that Jerry mentioned. Maybe an exception to allow for a single receptacle (similar to the one that allows a freezer outlet in a garage) with the plug-in transformer that has a retainig bracket to prevent it from easily being unplugged? Just my two cents worth.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

Gentlemen: Thanks as always for your replies. I was considering an exception for singular receptacles used to satisfy 210.63 or something somiliar to that, but figured you guys could help me out with out. Once again you have.

 

[bwyllie]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

Don't forget an excpetion for receptacles for projectors & small condensate pumps and liquid sensing valves for water heaters.

[ September 03, 2003, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: bwyllie ]

 

[tom baker]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

Wow, 2008 cycle, but thats next!

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

Why not just leave this one alone.

 

[caj1962]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

Ryan
I agree with some of the other posters as to the need for these recpticles for data and the other instalations mentioned. In our "wireless world" I cannot even guess to as to the miles of pipe and wire I have installed in the last 5 years for the information highway in the facility I work in to be wireless. I work in the healthcare industry and we have had situations where the data being transmitted from a patient was lost because they were in between attanas and a code was called needlessly. Then an emergency work order is issued and we install another antenna.
While I understand the intent behind this code section the area inside a suspended ceiling becomes very valuable real estate for all of the trades. The need for these "exceptions" that you would have to add to this code would be endless and very unenforcable as the building needs change. The number of "wireless" antennas that I have installed does not go down, it is ever increasing as we put more demand to the sytems and find dead spots where some device did not send the proper signal at the right time.
While I believe the intent behind this code section is to not allow flexible cords and cables to replace the proper wiring method that should be used. I don't think making more codes or ammending the ones we have will stop recpticles being installed in drop ceilings.
I also do not think the application I describe is unique to my facility either.
I may be far off in voicing my opinion on this topic but this is what I see every day.

 

[iwire]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

Originally posted by caj1962:
I may be far off in voicing my opinion on this topic but this is what I see every day.

I see the same thing in many of the buildings, we work in.

All the equipment mentioned above and then some.

We get prints for new buildings from the engineers with "Outlet above ceiling for ****" all the time and we put them in. I have never known any of them getting red tagged.

I would add fiber optic lighting supply's, video projectors and associated equipment to the list.

 

[Guest]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

It seems that the equipment mfg's need to make their equipment suitable for "hard wiring" to meet NEC in suspended ceilings. How do you codify that? Short of codifying it, the mfg's need to put a knockout in their devices, and have a way to remove the cord. Very little is hardwired in the computer industry. Maybe that should change instead of the code?

How do we hardwire something like this that might be better off in the suspended ceiling?

Link to description of wireless repeater

[ Spell checked by: ieSpell ]

 

[hbendillo]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

I just wanted to clarify something. I thought ryan was talking about flush mounted receptacles in the ceiling. He did say "in" the ceiling. Are we just talking about receptacles in an accessible space above the ceiling or for receptacles acually mounted in the ceiling. I can understand the concern for the latter but not the former.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Receptacles in ceilings

My apologies for the lack of clarity. I meant above the ceiling not in and flush with the ceiling.