Receptacles in patio door area

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jeff48356

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Livonia, Michigan
I'm wiring a house with something I've never ran into before. There is a bay window like structure that contains the patio doorwall. The left side is the sliding part, and the right is the fixed part. According to the Michigan code for receptacle placement, I would need one under each of the small windows. Since this is part of the dining area (the kitchen table would go in front of it), I presume that both the outlets would need to be on one of the SABC's, right? The blue box on the far right as shown is part of the circuit that powers the great room.
 

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Is the required receptacle spacing different in the Michigan code? The NEC wouldn't require a receptacle under either of those windows unless the distance from the edge of the fixed panel past the windows were more than 6', then you need one.
 
infinity said:
Is the required receptacle spacing different in the Michigan code? The NEC wouldn't require a receptacle under either of those windows unless the distance from the edge of the fixed panel past the windows were more than 6', then you need one.
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Yes, there are some different requirements. The inspector is calling for one under each, so I'm not going to argue with him. I guess at this point, my question is whether I should put them on one of the SABC's, since it is part of the dining area.

But again, the distance to the first blue box on the right of the picture is more than 6' from the fixed panel, so I could see installing one under the right-side window.
 
jeff48356 said:
Yes, there are some different requirements. The inspector is calling for one under each, so I'm not going to argue with him. I guess at this point, my question is whether I should put them on one of the SABC's, since it is part of the dining area.

But again, the distance to the first blue box on the right of the picture is more than 6' from the fixed panel, so I could see installing one under the right-side window.
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Dining room receptacles need to be on SABC's. I agree with you on the right window but you only need to be within 6' of the left door edge which would be well past the left window.
 
Is there 6' of wall space to the left? Or do the kitchen cabinets start to the left of the window. Yes, they need to be on SABC.
 
A receptacle needs to be within 6 feet of the center of the door (fixed door panel is included in "wall space"), picky inspectors will require one within the "dining room" section of wall and require it to be on the SABC's.
 
and here I always thought it was the door space, not the center.. so have done it wrong many times and gotten away with it... though, to be fair, I usually have an outlet around four feet from the glass...
 
Adamjamma said:
and here I always thought it was the door space, not the center.. so have done it wrong many times and gotten away with it... though, to be fair, I usually have an outlet around four feet from the glass...
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It is door space.

In this case, the entire door assembly consists of 2 parts - a fixed panel and a door. The center of the door assembly is the edge of the door space from the side with the fixed panel.
 
I have installed and dealt with a few sliding doors... and have always used from the door frame edges, not the center of the door, for my 5 feet marking. I have never on any door measured from the center of the door. Never got called on it, either.
 
Receptacles in patio door area

Adamjamma said:
I have installed and dealt with a few sliding doors... and have always used from the door frame edges, not the center of the door, for my 5 feet marking. I have never on any door measured from the center of the door. Never got called on it, either.
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It’s an interesting discussion. I think of it this way:

One intent of the 6’ rule is to minimize the use of extension cords. One could set a table with lamp in front of the fixed portion of the door and if the receptacle is 6’ from the edge of the door assembly, the 6’ lamp cord would not reach the receptacle.

ETA: I have such a door in my home. The receptacle is almost 6’ from the edge of the assembly on the fixed side. It’s done your way
 
Adamjamma said:
I have installed and dealt with a few sliding doors... and have always used from the door frame edges, not the center of the door, for my 5 feet marking. I have never on any door measured from the center of the door. Never got called on it, either.
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210.52(A)(2)(2):"The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels" The moving portion is what NEC considers the door, any fixed portion is part of the wall space. If you have full floor to ceiling windows you still have a wall space and may need to consider floor receptacles within 18" of that wall to meet requirements.
 
So if I install French doors in the opening, then I am ok but if I install a sliding door then the side that is fixed normally has to have an outlet within 18 inches..lol...
 
Adamjamma said:
So if I install French doors in the opening, then I am ok but if I install a sliding door then the side that is fixed normally has to have an outlet within 18 inches..lol...
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The fixed side has to have an outlet within 6' of its edge with the sliding part, measured horizontally along the floor line, not within 18". It's "wall space" for the requirements of 210.52(A)(1).
 
Adamjamma said:
Again though, if it was a French door where both doors opened, it would be from the edges of the doorway, not the center of the doorway, correct??
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Yes, same with the sliding door. The "doorway" is the sliding section. The fixed section would be considered wall.
 
david luchini said:
Yes, same with the sliding door. The "doorway" is the sliding section. The fixed section would be considered wall.
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His point with French doors is that there is no "fixed" or "sliding" portion. Both parts open. One opens first, then they other.

For remodeling purposes, the entire doorway can be replaced, and using a different set, too, that reverses which one is "fixed" and which is "sliding." One could debate what constitutes remodeling, but a good door guy can swap one in half a day and there is no framing work involved, just trim.

I understand that people might put a table in front of the fixed portion of a sliding door, but I would have argued it's still part of the door, not a wall. Now I would also temper that depending on with whom the argument is, and at what phase of construction we are in. At this point, it seems easy enough to not argue with an inspector and just install a receptacle.

I've seen very large sliding doors. Like each panel can easily be more than 6 feet wide. So, now you have more than six feet of non-pass-through part of the door. I guess you are going to install a floor receptacle in front of the glass portion that doesn't slide?
 
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actually, when researching this I ran into another consideration for the bow front to consider, rather tha the sliding door... is the space under the side windows over or under 2 feet???

Because if it is over 2 feet then both sides would be required an outlet... and just to keep from arguing I would probably put one in the specs if I was still drawing up plans for friends...lol.
 
Adamjamma said:
... is the space under the side windows over or under 2 feet???

Because if it is over 2 feet then both sides would be required an outlet...
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Disagree. The corners do not present a break in the wall. The only requirement is one within 6' of each side of the operating door.

and just to keep from arguing I would probably put one in the specs if I was still drawing up plans for friends...lol.
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Agree. Plus, I'm into symmetry. :)
 
LarryFine said:
Disagree. The corners do not present a break in the wall. The only requirement is one within 6' of each side of the operating door.


Agree. Plus, I'm into symmetry. :)
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actually, was taught that a corner creates a break in the wall... unless it is under a certain distance... My old boss would kill me if I had 2 foot wide windows in a three foot wide section of wall, beside a door... and did not put in an outlet under each window... he considered it almost as much sacrilege as forgetting to put in phone outlets in certain areas..but this was before cable tv...

His own consideration was that a person was more likely to want a lamp at the door than they would want a plant...
but everyone is different.
 
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