Recessed lights-causing water seepage?

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Lavenburg

Member
Location
Montville
Ok, here is a new one I have never heard of. Maybe someone has a little info.

Facts:
Sloped vaulted ceiling 6/12 pitch, We installed ICAT cans and at the home owners request installed r30 CFL's. Contractor did a roof tear off and installed new plywood in different sections and a copmplete new 30 year roof.

Customer says "that these lights are causing water to seep in through the roof at the light locations".

This is a 2*10 ceiling structure so there is not much insulation if ay over the top of the light cans. They are double insulated being ICAT cans.

In my opinion, even if there is a little heat loss the roof should not allow any water to seep through. In twenty years of experience this is the first I ever heard of.

Any opinions or related data? Please, I would love to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks
 
S

SEO

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Does this happen during the cold weather months or all year round? If it only happens in the cold weather there may be warm air flowing thru the cans into the cold space and condensation occurs causing the cans to drip.
 
Last edited:
Cavie

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
Lavenburg said:
Ok, here is a new one I have never heard of. Maybe someone has a little info.

Facts:
Sloped vaulted ceiling 6/12 pitch, We installed ICAT cans and at the home owners request installed r30 CFL's. Contractor did a roof tear off and installed new plywood in different sections and a copmplete new 30 year roof.

Customer says "that these lights are causing water to seep in through the roof at the light locations".

This is a 2*10 ceiling structure so there is not much insulation if ay over the top of the light cans. They are double insulated being ICAT cans.

In my opinion, even if there is a little heat loss the roof should not allow any water to seep through. In twenty years of experience this is the first I ever heard of.

Any opinions or related data? Please, I would love to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks
Click to expand...

A/C ducts in the attic??? I'd be looking for A/C leaks. Cold air blowing on the lights would be my guess.
 
L

Lavenburg

Member
Location
Montville
Regarding both replies - Thanks

Its a vaulted ceiling so there is no attic space and no A/C supplies or returns for A/C. although very good point.

The ceiling are fully insulated up to the cans and packed tight. However, I doubt there is any over the top of the can. Being they are ICAT cans one would think this would prevent any type of condensation build up. Not really sure and I think this is something to definatley look at. I have the same install situation at my house and have never had any problem.

How could one check to see if it isactually condensation build up?
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
You either have a roof leak or the cans are sweating. Are all the cans leaking???? There may be a dew point problem although I have never seen this with cans in a cathedral ceiling.
 
cadpoint

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
My guess/suggestion, get one of those laser temp. guns, go up there at the heat of the day, have the lights off all day... shoot the various sides of can see if you determine, if the valley that the light is in is acting like a chimney dispite insualtion, or some prescived amount of thermal barrier is not all there.

Oh yeah is there a ridge vent ?
 
Last edited:
Chamuit

Chamuit

Grumpy Old Man
Location
Texas
Occupation
Electrician
It's not the cans. We don't use water. It's either the A/C guy or the Roofers problem.
 
L

Lavenburg

Member
Location
Montville
Wow, thanks for all the input.

I'll try to comment on all.
ICAT is a air tight can (In Contact Air Tight). Insulation is suppose to come in contact to help prevent the heat loss from the interior of the room and properly insulate the ceiling. However, there must be a way for air to travel past the cans to properly vent the roof. There is a ridge vent. This was an addition over a garage area so the there was nothing previously to compare to. I aggree with the heat detection (infrared) gun. That's a great idea although I would think there will definatley be a tempature rise around the cans.

I'm thinking the issue is condensation from around the lights leading me to beleave that the air is not flowing up to the ridge vent as planned. If the baffles at the soffits were not installed properly or under sized the air flow may not be present. This is apparently is a winter problem only per the ome owner.

Does anyone have a suggestion to repair the situation?

Again, thank you for all the input
 
S

SEO

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
It sounds like the hot air may be rising, sitting in the cans and part of the cans may be exposed to the cold air in the attic thus creating condensation. Is there a way to pull the cans out add insulation and completly engulf all parts of the cans?
 
mcclary's electrical

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
Lavenburg said:
Wow, thanks for all the input.

I'll try to comment on all.
ICAT is a air tight can (In Contact Air Tight). Insulation is suppose to come in contact to help prevent the heat loss from the interior of the room and properly insulate the ceiling. However, there must be a way for air to travel past the cans to properly vent the roof. There is a ridge vent. This was an addition over a garage area so the there was nothing previously to compare to. I aggree with the heat detection (infrared) gun. That's a great idea although I would think there will definatley be a tempature rise around the cans.

I'm thinking the issue is condensation from around the lights leading me to beleave that the air is not flowing up to the ridge vent as planned. If the baffles at the soffits were not installed properly or under sized the air flow may not be present. This is apparently is a winter problem only per the ome owner.

Does anyone have a suggestion to repair the situation?

Again, thank you for all the input
Click to expand...

Maybe drill a small hole in hte top of the can big enough for the stem of a foam can to go in it and foam around the top of each can. Then, ensure that the trim is air tight using a gasket
 
cadpoint

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
I beleive they sell a humidifier tester with a snoop extension, that is the only way, MO to proof that water or condensation is up in the thermal baffers.

Whats' the odd you have four or five nails in you light?

I do like the gasket to stop conditioned air through the light! But, I feel there's more to it. Frankly I forgot is it rain or condensation! :)

The cheapest fix...take off ridge vent is the cure, they don't want to destroy ceiling and to correct the insulation, redo sheet rock to allow flow of air flow to it.

But!

I would call their building inspector and ask if ridge vents are required, on new roofs and why they are required.
Just ask a dumb question, no electrical details, no adddress, no caller ID, just a are ridge vents required and why!

Here's my understanding of the ridge vent application: (I also beleive you will hear about the same from a building inspector)

Ridge vents is a roofing shingle requirement/application to vent the air that in attic, crawl spaces, etc. This is intalled instead of have a roof pitch ceiling vent they put the thing in to get some air flow in these spaces, and sometimes the install is not done correctly, or based on the exact design of the roof structure members, it can over or underwork. I also beleive it is a modern day requirement of the building codes to install the thing if there's not enough measurable venting. There is a square footage requirement of venting the attic(period), but I've been away from drawing and designing for years now.

One other thing you can look for on the house, is a small 2 or 3 in wide slot vents on the underside of the eve's/hangover's. These help make the ridge vent breath and old houses might have a what looks like a foundation vent but new design is a continual plastic machine punched 1/2 holes about 1/16 of an inc this is installated continual down the eve's. This underside vent also adds up to sq footage of venting the ceiling.

Most modern design will use all of the high ceiling (living space) for spacial effect of making a small room larger. Thus there is no room for the roof pitch ceiling vent.(a vent on the vertical outside wall)

Don't get the roofer involved he will say they are correct,(by his Code), don't let HO call the roofer either, cause eveyone done the correct things for a bad result, everyone will get there back up...

Good Luck!
 
P

pjg

Member
One of my jobs had the same problem. Long story short, adding additional roof vents solved the problem
 
L

Lavenburg

Member
Location
Montville
Thank you all for the responses.I passed on the information on venting. A believe this may the be issue. Inherent problem with vaulted ceilings when they pack them to tight with insulation.

Thanks Again!
 
Split Bolt

Split Bolt

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Just a thought. You stated that a contractor did a complete roof tear off and replaced some of the plywood. Is it possible that there was no ridge vent in the original construction? If that's the case, there may be no air channel now from the eave to ridge. Were your lights there before the new roof?
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Lavenburg said:
Ok, here is a new one I have never heard of. Maybe someone has a little info.

Facts:
Sloped vaulted ceiling 6/12 pitch, We installed ICAT cans and at the home owners request installed r30 CFL's. Contractor did a roof tear off and installed new plywood in different sections and a copmplete new 30 year roof.

Customer says "that these lights are causing water to seep in through the roof at the light locations".

This is a 2*10 ceiling structure so there is not much insulation if ay over the top of the light cans. They are double insulated being ICAT cans.

In my opinion, even if there is a little heat loss the roof should not allow any water to seep through. In twenty years of experience this is the first I ever heard of.

Any opinions or related data? Please, I would love to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks
Click to expand...

This is what I am seeing from what you said:

Customer says "that these lights are causing water to seep in through the roof at the light locations".
Click to expand...

You may not actually have water dripping from the can into the room but rather have a moisture problem above the light locations and it has caused deterioration of the roof sheathing - that is why you mentioned the roofers had to replace certain areas of the plywood.

Insulated ceiling cans and air tight cans still are a penetration in the ceiling and are going to leak more air than finished drywall will, add to that the fact that you are in a cathedral ceiling with limited amount of space to add insulation above your cans and you have a weak insulation point in the ceiling compared to the rest of the ceiling.

During cold weather, warm moist air will migrate through the fixure and condense on the underside of cold roof sheathing directly above the can.

Ventilation of the roof will help this problem, proper ventilation not only will have a ridge vent or something at the peak but will have inlets usually in the eaves so the air circulates through the structure, and there must be space above the insulation for air to flow or none of the vents really do much good.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top