Red Flags about 210.12(B)

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kevinware

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Louisville, KY
I guess I'm looking for opinions on when to walk away from a job. Here are the stats: I friend asked me to put up ceiling fans in the bedrooms of his house, total of three. The bedrooms never had a lighting outlet just a switch controlled receptacle in each room. The house was built in the mid 70's so of course it has aluminum wiring and the panel is original to the house so it is a split-bus panel. There is no open space to add circuits if needed and the neutral bus has no open terminals and some of the screws have more then one wire under it, copper and aluminum mixed. As far as my understanding of 210.12(B) I am going to have to install an arc-fault breaker for the new lighting/Fan outlet. If I start moving things around in this panel what kind of domino effect will I create? Should I pass on this one?

Please tell me your opinion??

Thanks,
Kevin
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

Kevin tell your friend you are to busy or something.The part of Al and Cu terminated under same screw smells of a bad situation.Yes there will be a large domino effect especially if you intend to have it inspected. :D
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

Originally posted by allenwayne:
get out from under it while you can :D
Click to expand...
Kevin, If this guy really is a friend, and you have the time, you would probably do him a BIG service to rewire this house completely. Aluminum house wiring has been a pain from the start! ;)


_____________________
Wes Gerrans
Instructor
Northwest Kansas Technical College
Goodland, KS
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

Since this is a friend, you should level with him completely. I think he has three options:
(1) Live with it, and be happy with what he has.
(2) Live with it, be unhappy, but accept that unhappiness as his lot in life.
(3) Pay the money to get it done right.

How much of a price break you are willing to give (e.g., he pays all materials, you do the labor at a reduced rate) is entirely up to you and your level of comfort.
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

Kevin, If this guy really is a friend, and you have the time, you would probably do him a BIG service to rewire this house completely. Aluminum house wiring has been a pain from the start! Also check the panel. Many of these were Federal Pacific which you would also be doing a service to get rid of.

The last time I checked my children have not given up the bad habit of eating.To suggest that someone do a favor like rewire an entire house takes a little more than some time one might have.The cost that would have to be charged to rewire a complete home and replace a service to boot unless someone is willing to do it for free :p don`t speak chinese
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

What and how much one is willing to do for a friend is up to that individual. In my opinion, a real friend would use some level of common sense and professional courtesy when asking for "help" with a project. The right thing to do is not expect free work and accept it graciously when it is offered.

At the same time, to place a blanket policy may not be totally appropriate either. I imagine that we all have friends that we go to when we have questions or need help fixing our car, carpentry, plumbing, masonry, etc. What goes around comes around. If one is not willing to help out a friend once in a while, that same individual best be willing to pay for the help he/she receives as well.

To Kevin,
I agree with Charlie. If you want to help out your friend, point out his options and if your are so inclined, offer to do it at whatever price you feel is fair. If you wish to provide a price break for the benefit of your relationship, so be it. I would expect that your friend would be helping out along the way as well.

Bob
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

I am involved with a charitable service organization, as are many other members of this Forum. You may be one of them.

One possibility to consider would be a trade off, at least as regards to the time involved. The friend pays for all materials. You (and your students, if that is an option) do the labor for free (or for a low fee). In return, he gathers six other people he knows, and they help your favorite charitable service organization with some upcoming event.

My only point here is that this will tell you if the friend is willing to invest his own time and labor in exchange for yours.
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

I like Charlie B's breakdown of options. Under option #3
Pay the money to get it done right.
Click to expand...
The object of "it" is something I'd like to break down from my personal perspective.

The local AHJ and ordinances need to be queried at the outset. Find out if there are any minimums that you will have to meet, if you initiate the addition of three paddlefans in this house.

In my area, other than correcting "obvious hazards and nonCode installations", I can do the work of the scope that I choose, within the bounds of the NEC.

I would convey all the information my friend will take about what I know about his premises wiring. I'd inform him initially and go over new discoveries at the end of the job.

I'd start off by doing a subpanel install, and move the circuits necessary from the old panel into the subpanel in order to create enough space for a subfeed breaker. The subpanel needs to be compatible with one of the available models of AFCI breakers presently manufactured. Any aluminum wiring terminations altered will require that the aluminum be landed on an Al/Cu termination, that COALR devices be used and/or that Al/Cu connectors be used for splicing. Take photos of before and after and put a set in the file and give a set to the friend.

There's a lot of labor that's involved with the total premises wiring system replacement in an existing dwelling, especially with as many opennings as one built in 1970. It would be wholly reasonable to develope a plan that is staged over time. And it may well be reasonable to only do the subpanel as I just described.
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

Al I also put the sub panel out there as a consideration at the same time friendship and business must take seperate roads sometimes.Especially with a total rewire.
All I was saying Wes that this type of job entails alot more than wiring an addition or adding a receptacle.Rewires are usually the dirtiest job that can be done believe me I have done my share of them.
If you want to help a friend that`s cool have him crawl under and over through the nasty stuff the will be encountered and he will understand this is worth paying to have it done.
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

If this was my home, I would be inclined towards some middle ground. Rewiring the whole house would be very expensive.

I would suggest being upfront with him about the aluminum wiring without being too alarmist about it. After all, the vast majority of houses with aluminum wire have not burned to the ground.

You might be able to add a subpanel and wire from there, possibly without having to disturb any existing aluminum wires. I am not sure what liability you might incur if you were to lift an aluminum wire and put it back in the same spot, but if you do not disturb them, I would imagine your liability is minimal in the remote chance that the aluminum wiring were to at some point cause some problem.

Keep in mind that if you do any work at all in the house, even if you do not touch any aluminum wires, you will be sued if there is a fire, even if it is not of electrical origin. Thats just the way it is these days.
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

al h had a good idea, but why not put in a new service with the existing panel left as a sub, leaving all wire as is until ready to remove. Add circuits, abandon al. biggest thing would be the kitchen, laundry next.

paul
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

I would start with a service panel replacement.

Does the home have an attic? If so, I would go ahead and install all the fans, put them all on one circuit, and run a homerun for them on an AFCI.

That way, you're only adding new wiring and not having to mess with the aluminum stuff.

If the home doesn't have an attic, that's another matter entirely. :(
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

Kevinware listed his occupation as an electrical apprentice, why not have a licensed electrician look the job over. I don't know that a license is required in his area but having a more experienced person look over the job couldn't hurt. If a permit is required he could have the homeowner permit the job and assume the liability.
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

I see you have been a member here for 2 1/2 years .1st and foremost know what you can handle and what you can`t.It`s no disgrace to say "that`s is more than I can handle."I say that not knowing how much hands on exp. you have.
Adding a couple of ceiling fans and switches is pretty basic and I see that when you saw what there was you backed up,took notice of what you had and were savy enough to say hey guys this is what there is any opinions ;)
Al wiring was outlawed for branch circuits for a good reason,it was garbage that killed people ;)
Have you ever done a active service changeout.To install a new service and tie into the original panel to be used as a sub panel means there will be many changes in what is now the main panel.This isn`t something that can only be learned by actually doing it.If you have never done something like this maybe you can get a qualified Electrician oversee the change out as you do it.
Al wire is a horror to work with and as I stated earlier if you add switches IE changing a 1 gang to a 2 gang there are no wire nuts that will work to make up the box.Now you could add a 1 gang cut in and use it for the fan in each room.It seems like an awful lot of work just to do some a favor and add a couple of ceiling fans.

Quote - Keep in mind that if you do any work at all in the house, even if you do not touch any aluminum wires, you will be sued if there is a fire, even if it is not of electrical origin. Thats just the way it is these days - end of Quote

The reason I said in the beginning .
"get out while you can"
Was because I know what this little favor would become been there and done it no more though.
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

Some of this thread is unreadable so I'll just second what Peter said. Service upgrade, new circuit for fans, done.
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

The minimalist approach would be to combine two existing circuits on a tandem breaker, install a single new AFCI breaker, and run a new homerun for a 15a circuit for just the fans, from fanbox to fanbox.

You can use pullchains, remotes, or cap the existing wires in the switchbox and drop a new 14-2 (or -3), and make the switched receptacle always hot, or rewire the receptacle boxes, and clip the abandoned wires in both boxes for more switchbox space.
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

More than likely from the time era the service panel would be a federal or ite pushmatic or zinsco or some other outdated panel and afci`s are not available.But that would be the determining factor,what brand is the panel ?
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

First I want to thank everyone for the help and guidance, I really enjoy this site. Now, as far as my friend's situation goes this is where I have left it: I spoke with him today and gave him some research I pulled from the internet on the hazards of AL wire. I suggested that if he and his wife planed on staying in the house for some time that he may want to look into having the AL wire removed. I also told him that I may not be the right person for the job, I have done re-wire jobs before but my experience with AL wire is very limited :mad: (don't like being limited). I have asked him to get more opinions and decide what he can spend and go with it from there.

Thanks again for all your help,
Kevin
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

allenwayne,
The panel is a Federal :( and I am worried every time I look at it. It is like this, my friend has a wife and a new baby and this is their first home. They had no ideal this house had AL wire and some how the home inspector failed to catch things like the mix of CU and AL wire on the same terminals in the panel :mad: sorry for ranting.......Thanks for your help.....
 
Re: Red Flags about 210.12(B)

Kevin, If this house is a recent purchase and the homeowner was not notified by the home inspector that the house was wired with Aluminum wire. Check the home inspection report. Some of the reports have a section that identifies wiring method ( electrical section). I know of a homeowner that is trying to make the inspection company pay for repairs because they listed they wiring method as Romex ( copper ) when there is still plenty of Knob & Tube in the house. They have a brother-in-law that's a lawyer and he thinks this may fall under criminal negligence since the wiring was clearly visible. These people paid $750.00 for an inspection and it doesn't look like the inspector did very much. This case is on going so I don't know what will happen but these people have the money to fight it out. The last I herd the inspection company was trying to settle to protect their reputation. I hate it when the inspectors work for the seller ( real estate company ) when the buyer is paying the fee. I didn't mean to imply that you can't rewire the house only that it is safer to let the homeowner be the contractor and you work for him as labor ( cash money with no paper trail ). You still get the inspection and do a proper job but the homeowner assumes liability.
 
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