Refer GFCI/AFCI

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bark

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Ok, here we go again. I'm buying breakers for my son's house tomorrow. The only question so far are the two refer outlets in the kitchen. They are not within 6 feet of the sink. In fact they are across the room, about 12-14 feet. I plan on the AFCI/GFCI for them, but do I really need this? For safety, no question but I don't want any problems with accidental tripping and spoiled food. I've looked at the code and my interpretation is a bit muddled. Maybe I'm having senior moments, but at least I'm giving it a try.
Thanks again for the help

Bark
 
In my opinion:

1) Until Refrigerator-nuisance trips of GFCI's are better addressed, avoiding Dual Function or GFCI breakers for SABC's may be advised.

2) Until Microwave-nuisance trips of AFCI's are better addressed, avoiding Dual Function or AFCI breakers for SABC's may be advised.

3) Dual Function & GFCI breakers may be best for Dishwashers, providing Readily-Accessible reset where under-counter outlets can not.
 
bark said:
Ok, here we go again. I'm buying breakers for my son's house tomorrow. The only question so far are the two refer outlets in the kitchen. They are not within 6 feet of the sink. In fact they are across the room, about 12-14 feet. I plan on the AFCI/GFCI for them, but do I really need this? For safety, no question but I don't want any problems with accidental tripping and spoiled food. I've looked at the code and my interpretation is a bit muddled. Maybe I'm having senior moments, but at least I'm giving it a try.
Thanks again for the help

Bark
Click to expand...

AFCI is required, GFCI is not in your case
 
I bought the permit in May, and I think the inspector said something about 2014. A comment about garage and bath recept's have loonily have GFCI and not arc fault.
 
You just need to arc fault the circuits if you’re not within 6’ of a water source


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Being on the 17' cycle 210.12(a), kitchens have assumed a lot of DF's out of sheer contractual economics , add to this the accesibility updates for devices that require resetting or monthly testing

210.52(b) and ex. gives us the choice of having a refer on the countertop DF, or it's own circuit , which would is required afci, not gfci (assuming the receptacle is in a non-gfci area)

I'm told the '20 will tighten it all up, whatever appliances are cranky is already an issue for us, a fellow EC has an entire disclaimer written up covering his callbacks

and i keep reading about this 'branch/feeder afci' , which i would gladly purchase a model of say, 30A 2polefeeder (if i could) to serve a 6 cir MLO dedicated panel for all the kitchen reno's i do

it would make more sense to have the entire kitchen go down, than the refer alone unnoticed

jmho

~RJ~
 
romex jockey said:
i keep reading about this 'branch/feeder afci' , which i would gladly purchase a model of say, 30A 2polefeeder (if i could) to serve a 6 cir MLO dedicated panel for all the kitchen reno's i do.

~RJ~
Click to expand...

Branch Circuit and Feeder AFCI's are the original AFCI's prior to 2008. They were available in 1p-15 amp and 1p-20 amp. They did not detect series faults. The newer and current version of Combination AFCI's are supposed to detect series and parallel faults.

I would never want to install an AFCI for a feeder even if larger breakers were to become available. Its hard enough dealing with homeowners and tracking down why a breaker is tripping with a single circuit. If you really want to have an indicator that the Refer AFCI tripped use a 2-p and connect the kitchen lighting to one side.
 
bark said:
WaState and I think it's the 2014 code
Click to expand...
2014 added kitchen and laundry to the list of places in 210.12 where AFCI protection is required.

sparky1118 said:
You just need to arc fault the circuits if you’re not within 6’ of a water source


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
My water source is about 50 feet from the house and about 125 feet down a well casing. I do have a system of pipes/tubes that allows that water to flow to my kitchen sink, tubs/showers and other fixtures/appliances.;)

romex jockey said:
Being on the 17' cycle 210.12(a), kitchens have assumed a lot of DF's out of sheer contractual economics , add to this the accesibility updates for devices that require resetting or monthly testing

210.52(b) and ex. gives us the choice of having a refer on the countertop DF, or it's own circuit , which would is required afci, not gfci (assuming the receptacle is in a non-gfci area)

I'm told the '20 will tighten it all up, whatever appliances are cranky is already an issue for us, a fellow EC has an entire disclaimer written up covering his callbacks

and i keep reading about this 'branch/feeder afci' , which i would gladly purchase a model of say, 30A 2polefeeder (if i could) to serve a 6 cir MLO dedicated panel for all the kitchen reno's i do

it would make more sense to have the entire kitchen go down, than the refer alone unnoticed

jmho

~RJ~
Click to expand...
AFCI requirements had little or no change for the average dwelling anyway from 2014 to 2017. GFCI requirements at a dwelling didn't change all that much either - most changes effecting a dwelling were clarification changes and not complete new rules.

I seldom put a refrigerator on a dedicated circuit. Most don't pull that many amps. As far as noticing other things not working and that may catch your attention before the fridge - my house the fridge is likely to be the first thing noticed that isn't working. Going to microwave something - chances are pretty good you will get it out of a dark fridge before you put it into the microwave.
 
Well, kinda tricky there.. Colors are old british/canadian, methods are USA/Canadian, british, and Caribbean Common Code, along with local stuff, and no actual code since around 1980...or 85, depending upon whom you talk to... so open to inspector decisions...

Inspector I have been dealing with the most was willing to go through the old IEC and UK code books I had, and agreed that all the codes need brought up to standards, but gave me his list of expected... Basically, because UK code calls for accessible panels, breaker panel must be on every floor, in a hallway or non locked room for that floor... stuff like that...

Basically, if it is in an electrical standard that you can proof is more up to date than what he has in his office, he will accept it, otherwise it is old rules... At least two circuits in kitchen for outlets but no more than three outlets per kitchen circuit..lol...

Country is planning to adopt a copy of the NEC, but arguing over color codes, etc... Expectation is by 2026 will come up with a code that accepts the latest NEC codes with a basic local exception concerning wire colors, and the expectation to use metric codes rather than imperial codes... 7 years ago they finally allowed PVC conduit rather than Aluminum conduit..lol...
 
Adamjamma said:
Well, kinda tricky there.. Colors are old british/canadian, methods are USA/Canadian, british, and Caribbean Common Code, along with local stuff, and no actual code since around 1980...or 85, depending upon whom you talk to... so open to inspector decisions...

Inspector I have been dealing with the most was willing to go through the old IEC and UK code books I had, and agreed that all the codes need brought up to standards, but gave me his list of expected... Basically, because UK code calls for accessible panels, breaker panel must be on every floor, in a hallway or non locked room for that floor... stuff like that...

Basically, if it is in an electrical standard that you can proof is more up to date than what he has in his office, he will accept it, otherwise it is old rules... At least two circuits in kitchen for outlets but no more than three outlets per kitchen circuit..lol...

Country is planning to adopt a copy of the NEC, but arguing over color codes, etc... Expectation is by 2026 will come up with a code that accepts the latest NEC codes with a basic local exception concerning wire colors, and the expectation to use metric codes rather than imperial codes... 7 years ago they finally allowed PVC conduit rather than Aluminum conduit..lol...
Click to expand...

That sounds...interesting...to say the least. :slaphead:

What voltage do you use, or is that all over the map as well? :lol:
 
curt swartz said:
Branch Circuit and Feeder AFCI's are the original AFCI's prior to 2008. They were available in 1p-15 amp and 1p-20 amp. They did not detect series faults. The newer and current version of Combination AFCI's are supposed to detect series and parallel faults.

.
Click to expand...

Well that is a long story Curt, the best explanation would be the original nema afci task force chair's explanation (as well as rejected ROP) COMBINATION AFCIs:
WHAT THEY WILL AND WILL NOT DO

That said, we can still use the pre-08's , they have assumed supplemental status in 210.12, due to the potential class action suits 7 manufacturers were worrying about (but did not happen)>

(3) A listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker
installed at the origin of the branch circuit in combina‐
tion with a listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault
circuit interrupter installed at the first outlet box on the
branch circuit where all of the following conditions are
met:
Click to expand...

~RJ~
 
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