Related to the labor units thread...

[sw_ross]

I didn't want to high-jack that thread so I'm starting a different thread to ask some questions about the bidding topic.

I typically get project to bid/estimate that involve structures that have an existing electrical installation. Maybe an older structure that they're adding onto or converting from older business into a new business and they need an estimate of costs for budgeting purposes.

The current project I'm working on is to take a structure that used to be about a 12-unit motel and convert it into a day-care facility.

The interior partition walls have already been removed leaving only the exterior walls and the older style communal bathroom facility.

They don't have blueprints drawn up, just a rough concept of the layout of their needs.
In the existing wiring there are some opportunities to take advantage of for new future circuits (like conduits that generally head the direction I need for circuits), but it's hard for me to say exactly how much of the existing installation I can use, and how much will need to be ripped out until I start opening up stuff and see how they ran their conduits, etc.

It's been hard for me to make an accurate estimate since their needs aren't based off a blueprint with specs, and I'm not sure how much of the existing I can use. My estimate has been based on conversations with the new business owner and a few hours spent investigating/exploring the existing electrical.

Basically, I found myself shooting from the hip after breaking the project down into about 6 different components (lighting, mechanical, kitchen area, bathroom area, etc).

So far I've given them a rough estimate, a number that they can use for budgeting the project. I tried to go high on all the areas, not knowing exactly what I'll run into.

At this time my number isn't set in stone. I told them I'll need to operate on a T&M basis (giving a time price based somewhere between my shop rate and a service rate) since there are so many unknowns, and they're not operating off of a blueprint (at least for electrical).

How do you come up with a firm "bid" in a scenario like this?
Thanks for advice!

 

[Christoph]

What you are doing sounds good, you are upfront and transparent. You have done a lot of exploration and gave the customer a ballpark, shouldnt get any firmer than that in this kind of situation IMO.

The only thing that needs to be firm between you and the customer now I think is the fact that the final price will only be known when the project is done.

If you communicate to them that you will keep them in the loop they should e comfortable enough.

One thing to consider but to be careful of is Time and Material with a DO NOT EXCEED amount. (Careful because what if it DOES cost more for you then you wil be stuck with the rest. But if you go high enough it can give the customer something to work with and you the flexibility to charge what it takes within the limits that you came up with before.

Pretty much a fancy way of giving a bid price with the option to charge less. So not necessarily a win for you but could win them over.

 

[Christoph]

I was kinda rambling ...

I gues smy answer should just be:

You don't, just be upfront with them.

 

[sw_ross]

That's kinda what I was thinking.

We haven't talked about a "not to exceed" but I've told them my number is on the high end and depending on how the project goes the final price could be lower, but it could also higher.

I'm definitely being transparent. Hopefully not too transparent...
I don't have the job secured yet, but I have a good working relationship with this group as I've done a lot of other projects for them.

They told me they have to get the final numbers on the HVAC before going further.
Hopefully I'll find out soon...
I'll be bummed if they used my numbers to shop around for other EC's since I've already put a number of hours into researching the existing electrical and putting my estimate together (I know time spent on estimates is usually included in the estimate, and I have done this).

 

[cdslotz]

One thing to consider but to be careful of is Time and Material with a DO NOT EXCEED amount.

Yes...this is a good way to do a job like this, however, you need to establish some sort of scope of work that it is based on.

"not to exceed" does not mean there won't be changes. That's why you have to be VERY specific about scope.

btw....don't ever tell them you "may be on the high side" again

Also, how are they going to permit this job without stamped drawings?

 

[sw_ross]

This state, North Dakota, doesn't require stamped drawing. I have already been in touch with the AHJ about this project regarding some questions about the existing, and required updates for new.

When I pull a permit (assuming I get the job) the wiring cert will require a listed, detailed, scope of work because the building is larger than the day care facility footprint and I won't be touching the area outside that footprint other than what the AHJ will require.

I understand your comment about telling them my number is on the "high side", they immediately started asking about areas that they could "cut corners" (lower quality light fixtures for example).

 

[brantmacga]

When someone is asking me for a budget proposal to take to the bank, I’ll walk the site with them and markup on paper what they need, and deliver a budget proposal based on that.

If they give the go-ahead to proceed with a hard bid, the next thing would be for them to pay for a site investigation and preliminary drawings to base the proposal on. The site investigation is for you to thoroughly inspect what’s there to see what can be re-used.

My bid would then include the time necessary to complete the final drawings needed for construction.

On a project the size of what you’re describing, the site investigation would take me a day, and two days to complete the construction drawings. I don’t like to leave room for questions at the end such as, “well I thought your bid included this?” It also can help eliminate arguments over change-orders.

You’ll also have to coordinate with other subcontractors to find out their electrical needs; HVAC, plumbing, FA & security, networking, etc.... All those things take time you’ll need to be compensated for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sw_ross]

When someone is asking me for a budget proposal to take to the bank, I’ll walk the site with them and markup on paper what they need, and deliver a budget proposal based on that.

If they give the go-ahead to proceed with a hard bid, the next thing would be for them to pay for a site investigation and preliminary drawings to base the proposal on. The site investigation is for you to thoroughly inspect what’s there to see what can be re-used.

My bid would then include the time necessary to complete the final drawings needed for construction.

On a project the size of what you’re describing, the site investigation would take me a day, and two days to complete the construction drawings. I don’t like to leave room for questions at the end such as, “well I thought your bid included this?” It also can help eliminate arguments over change-orders.

Good information, thanks!

 

[sw_ross]

If they give the go-ahead to proceed with a hard bid, the next thing would be for them to pay for a site investigation and preliminary drawings to base the proposal on.

My bid would then include the time necessary to complete the final drawings needed for construction.

On a project the size of what you’re describing, the site investigation would take me a day, and two days to complete the construction drawings.

Can I ask what software you use to complete these drawings?
Thanks

 

[brantmacga]

Related to the labor units thread...

Can I ask what software you use to complete these drawings?
Thanks

I use three programs; autocad, bluebeam, and chief architect.


I use autocad to edit or add to existing CAD drawings.

I use bluebeam for redline drawings to be sent back to the architect, or to make quick field drawings for change-orders to send to guys on the job. If someone has a pdf of their floor plan I can use bluebeam to mark device and fixture placement.

I use chief architect for residential or if I’m making my own simple floor plan drawings. A lot of the custom residential stuff I do comes from architects already using chief architect, and I’ll just use their plan files to work on top of. If they’re using CAD, you can easily convert the dwg file to a chief architect file and work on it.

I initially stated using chief architect a few years ago when I was building spec houses with my brother; It was cheaper to buy the software to draw our own floor plans than paying someone else to do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[brantmacga]

Here are some examples that I actually did all in chief architect ..... the residential stuff was all drawn in CA and I just worked on top of their files.

The last one is a design-build church I’m working on, and I used the CAD file in chief architect. It’s become my favorite program to work in for residential and light commercial stuff. I can export them to dwg files also.

The switch layouts is for home control stuff; I go through and design every one of them on paper because I might have 7-8 different people on the job, and it would end up totally screwed up if I didn’t.

And I kitchen layouts I include all the rough-in dimensions for under-cabinet stuff and CAD files of the products so everyone understands what we are using; I send those to the cabinet builders as well.

It has the ability to do 3D renderings but that’s something I don’t use very often. Sometimes I get a customer that wants to get creative with their lighting and it helps to be able to show them visually what it will look like.

At the end of the job I make any redline changes and email a final set to the building owner.

This is one I did last weekend for my dad. He wants to build a small office behind his house, and this was a quick drawing I made for him to get some ideas and rough estimate pricing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk