Relocating an electrical panel

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jlp

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We are in the process of buying a new home. We just had inspection yesterday and found the electrical box not up to code. The sellers put a new bathroom in the basement in 2001, and the electrical panel is INSIDE the bathroom. The date that is on the box for the last inspection was about 6 years prior to the addition of the bathroom. Not sure how the seller got away with that one!

So now we?re faced with how to negotiate this problem with the seller b/c we really want this house. We haven't spoken to an electrician yet to get a quote, but maybe someone here can give preliminary help. How expensive is it to have an electrical panel moved approx 10 feet along the same wall it's on now? We live in the Philadelphia suburbs. Would it be more than $5K? Can anyone give a general range? Just trying to figure out if it makes more sense to move the bathroom or the box.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

Definetly get a licensed and insured contractor to look at the job, as there are too many variables such as construction type of the house, how many circuits there are, what type of wiring method used, attic space above the panel loaction, etc...

I have had an instance similar to this in which the solution was to simply turn the panel around 180 degrees to face the adjacent room. I charged under $1,000 for the work. This may be a possible solution for you as well?
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

The sellers got away with that one because the work was done illegally. Unless the inspection authorities are woefully incompetent or nonexistent in your area (highly unlikely), the sellers put in the bathroom without pulling the appropriate permits and getting the work inspected. This should be easy enough to check. Contact the inspections department for your area and ask about permits/inspections for the period the seller has owned the house (in my city, this is all public information and is available on the Web). Explain to the inspections people what the situation is. They will probably be interested to know about illegal work that has been done.

Since the seller is the one who did the illegal work, the seller should be the one who makes things right. The inspections people may be able to help convince them, as they usually have the authority to levy fines or issue other orders regarding illegal work. This all depends on what the laws are where you live.

As for how much it would cost, it depends on a variety of factors. Was the panelboard moved from its original location to a new location in the new bathroom? Or was the bathroom built around the panelboard in its existing location? If the latter, you may have no choice but to move the bathroom. There are usually rules about how far the panelboard can be from the meter.

It's hard to say how much the job might cost, as each case is different, and any licensed contractor worth hiring wouldn't be able to tell you how much it would cost without first looking at the situation. I have a hard time believing the job would approach $5K, though, especially if no circuits are being changed. The only way to know for sure is to get a few quotes.

In any case, I would run away from this house unless you are certain any electrical work needed to fix this problem is done by a licensed electrical contractor. I know Pennsylvania doesn't have statewide licensing, but your area probably has local licensing. This, like all electrical work, isn't something you want to let the neighborhood handyman do.

[ October 27, 2004, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

Originally posted by jlp:. . . we really want this house.
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But do you really want the bathroom in the basement? The cheapest way out (and this might not be your favorite choice) would probably be to convert the ?bathroom? into a ?room that is not a bathroom.? You could get a plumber to remove the sink and the commode, cover their respective drain holes, and cap off the supply water pipes (perhaps re-routing them into the basement first, so that you could use them later). Then you have a new floor put into that space. You can use that space for storage or some other purpose.
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

I'm with bphgravaity. This need not be a cause for consternation. If there is wall space available on an adjacent wall or even the same exterior wall outside the confines of the bathroom, and the meter does not need to be moved, a new cable will be required from the meter to the location for the relocated breaker panel(I assume breakers). After moving the panel, all the existing circuits would have to be moved into the box or junction boxes added to lengthen the ones that cannot be moved into the new panel. Depending on the number of circuits in use and capacities of any 220 circuits, the cost could very well be under $1000. In my opinion. As far as recourse against the seller, you would need to get legal advise there. Most sales contracts / seller's disclosures do have statements regarding the acquiring of permits for these types of things.
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

Thanks for all the information! My husband spoke to the electricians at his work and I spoke to some people as well, and it seems they all don't think this should be as big of a deal as I'm making it out to be in my mind. And we're not planning on taking legal action against the seller in as long as the seller pays to have the problem fixed by a licensed electrical contractor.

But do you really want the bathroom in the basement?
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It's a finished basement and one of multiple in the house, so we don't mind it there. Thanks for your concern though.
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

jlp,

If this is the main electrical panel, the SE cable or conduit between the meter pan and the breaker panel has to be the shortest distance possible. So,in all likelihood it was installed on an outside, masonry wall, in which case, turning it around to face another room is probably not an option. However, you'll have to give us more information so we can give you better advice.

Moving the panel 10' right or left can be an option but bear in mind that all the branch circuits for the house terminate inside this panel. So, you'll not only have to relocate the panel - you'll have to relocate or extend the branch circuits. Again, we'll need more information to better advise you.

How "finished" is the basement ? Are the ceilings hung or sheetrocked ? If they're sheetrocked you'll have some damage issues to deal with. While most of us here in the forum are "Supermen" in our own right, I don't think any of us can wave a magic wand and move this panel without some damage. Again, more info is needed.

I know you really want this house but bear something in mind - if the former owners went through the trouble of installing this bathroom around the breaker panel and without permits - think about what else they may have done inside the house that you can't see !
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

jlp.

Sounds like you are in a good position for price re-negotiation on your new home. The 1995 bath remod is a bootleg unless the local AHJ rep owns the house. (most unlikely :D )
As an active home inspector and retired electrical, I would let the sellers have an option of fixing the problems through an electrical contractor who will pull the permit with discretion. The seller's alternate option of getting a valid contract estimate that includes the permit fees clarifies what the new house price will come to without any building department intervention. A second 'backup card' electrical estimate from a contractor you know would keep the negotiation field on the level.

You can hold the trump card based on the inspection electrical hazards the seller and their agent is notified of and liable for should an insurance company reject any loss claims from a fire or injury due to their negligence.

I would be curious to what the seller's disclosure form statement says that is part of the title package that goes to the recorder's office. This is tightly followed in some locales.

rbj, Seattle
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

Keep in mind that a reduction in price does not solve the problem.At some later date you might be the seller.

Any one know just when this change in code took place ? At one time it was legal.What year code was in place at time of remodel ?

Also keep in mind that the seller may have the right to just say no sale and end it there.
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

I was just wondering if the electrical was not up to code is the pluming or the rest of the construction work compliant.
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

My experience is where a handyman has screwed up in one place the whole house is infected with the awful work. I would get an electrcian to look at the whole house. those "we inspect everything" inspection co. are a joke, at least they are around here.

I have been thinking of turning down any job that has evidence of handyman tampering.
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

Worst amateur job I ever saw was in my own house. Ceiling light started to flicker. Finally took it down and found splices that had not been twisted; the wires were merely looped together and taped over.

Another was a light with SPDT switches which worked halfway. Landlady said Mr. Handyman explained that is the way it was supposed to work. I couldn't argue with an old lady, so I fixed it myself. Wasn't dangerous, just didn't work right.

Then there was lamp cord spliced into a ceiling fixture, etc., etc., etc. And, I have seen the fault ground used as a neutral.

I am sure you pros have seen much worse.

All handymen aren't incompetent. I do a bit for the old ladies in the neighborhood, but I shy away from electrical stuff because I am not licensed. I know how, but they won't let me!
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

Rattus, you can get into much more trouble that you can imagine by doing work for others without a license, bond or insurance. If there is a problem, it is all your fault and you will be paying for it forever. There could even be jail time because of the argument that you are not qualified and you hurt someone. :eek:
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

You are right again Charlie, and that is the reason I don't do it for others. I have obtained a homeowners permit for serious work on my own house.

Then there was the handyman, the one who broke the neutral line with a tree limb, who wired hot and neutral to the same side of a receptacle. One day he was trying to wire up a security light and asked me why it didn't work. I told him he was missing a wire. He replies, "I disagree"! Then another engineer comes over and tells him the same thing; then he agrees. "Fools rush in...."
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

in CA the liability only follows contractors, not handymen who are employed by the homeowner. the homeowner is acting as the contractor.

paul
 
Re: Relocating an electrical panel

Paul, I think the liability is the same in TX, but I would not want to put the homeowner at risk, even if I am capable. If something can happen it will.

Some things I would not even do for myself, like fix aluminum wiring. I would move out.
 
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