Relocating Recept. on non-grounded system...

[mxslick]

Here's the scenario:

Older house/apt, (1940's 50's) wired with older NM cable 12/2, no grounding conductors.

Relocating a receptacle, which is a feed-through, with a need to add a piece of new 12/2 NM to go from the relocated to the next receptacle in line. (And it will be pigtailed, not using the device for the feed thru.)

The new 12/2 NM obviously has a ground conductor, which in this case doesn't return all the way to the panel, but simply runs from one box to the other.

Do you:

1) Leave the grounding conductor in place in each box, but tucked back out of the way;
2) Connect it to the devices at each end (and bond to the boxes if metal);
3) Cut the grounding conductor off at each end, at the end of the sheath so it cannot be used;

OR- and here's a kicker:

4) Connect a single 12 THHN green wire and tap into the grounding conductor of a nearby box, even though it is on a different circuit? (Distance would be about 6 feet.)

I kinda feel options 3 or 4 would be best, depending on if Code would allow either.

Let's hear what you all think!!

 

[LarryFine]

Oy! I'm going to wait for a few other responses first.

 

[macmikeman]

I think like Don G. does and cannot find allowance for running new receptacles off of existing non grounded outlets. However that issue aside, I like #1 because if the place ever does get a rewire its one less cable to run. I haven't checked my codebook on this one in a while so I am shooting from my less than capable memory on this but I am of the opinion that #2 is not allowed. I'll like #3 if you leave enough slack for future regrabaholdof in the case of #1's rewire. #4 not allowed. Same lousy memory at work here. Remember I lived in Hawaii in the 70's so I have an excuse for my memory problems

 

[iwire]

1) Leave the grounding conductor in place in each box, but tucked back out of the way;

I believe you could do this assuming you also comply with 250.130(C) at the new location.

2) Connect it to the devices at each end (and bond to the boxes if metal);

Very bad idea if you mean to do this without also complying with 250.130(C).

If you bond together what you can but leave them isolated a ground fault in utilization equipment at the new location will energize all the other items you bonded together.

3) Cut the grounding conductor off at each end, at the end of the sheath so it cannot be used;

I believe you could do this assuming you also comply with 250.130(C) at the new location.

4) Connect a single 12 THHN green wire and tap into the grounding conductor of a nearby box, even though it is on a different circuit? (Distance would be about 6 feet.)

That is a clear violation of 300.3(B) and IMO 250.130(C).

2002 NEC

VII. Methods of Equipment Grounding

250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source of separately derived systems shall be made in accordance with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment grounding conductor connections at service equipment shall be made as indicated in 250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non?grounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C).

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:

(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50

(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor

(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates

(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure

(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure

Notice that 250.130(C) requires that you go back to the panel (more or less) you can not just tie onto the nearest EGC.

300.3(B) requires the EGCs to run with the circuit conductors unless your using 230.130(C) as allowed by 300.3(B)(2) or it could be allowed by 300.3(B)(3)

 

[Minuteman]

Use a GFCI receptacle and mark it "No Equipment Ground" at the original outlet, connect the 12/2 w/ground and install a grounded outlet at the new location.

 

[hillbilly]

Use a GFCI receptacle and mark it "No Equipment Ground" at the original outlet, connect the 12/2 w/ground and install a grounded outlet at the new location.

Just don't attach the grounding conductor of the new 12/2 w/ground to the GFCI receptacle
406.3(D)(3)(b).

 

[iwire]

Use a GFCI receptacle and mark it "No Equipment Ground" at the original outlet, connect the 12/2 w/ground and install a grounded outlet at the new location.

That is acceptable for replacement receptacles not new receptacle locations as this is.

 

[mxslick]

Thanks for the answers so far...

Thanks for the answers so far...

It looks like options 2 and 4 are not the way to go, although I had originally thought option 4 was the safest, even though it is not Code compliant.

To add a bit more info to this:

In a run of 7 receptacles, the relocated one is number 5 ......

The panel is across the building, over 70 feet away.... somewhat accessable.

So the big issue, as I see it now, is that NONE of the conditions of 250.130(c) can be met, without pulling a new run from the panel and basically "center feeding" this circuit.

So, keeping the discussion alive, let's add that a new home run is NOT going to happen....

This is a job an associate is working on and it will be inspected, so perhaps a call to the AHJ would be in order.

As Larry Fine said, "Oy!"

edited to add: And iwire, thanks for the Code section quotes, I only have the 1999 NEC on hand. (BTW I believe that's the Code cycle the location falls under as of this time.)

 

[twistin214]

i agree on no extensions for non grounded plug circuts. although he says "feed through & relocate" like he is just moving it up a bit and doesn't want to leave it short like in so many older homes. i say 12-2 no grnd so it never gets hooked up and land a gfci at the start; label ungrnded gfci protected.

 

[hillbilly]

It looks like options 2 and 4 are not the way to go, although I had originally thought option 4 was the safest, even though it is not Code compliant.

To add a bit more info to this:

In a run of 7 receptacles, the relocated one is number 5 ......

The panel is across the building, over 70 feet away.... somewhat accessable.

So the big issue, as I see it now, is that NONE of the conditions of 250.130(c) can be met, without pulling a new run from the panel and basically "center feeding" this circuit.

So, keeping the discussion alive, let's add that a new home run is NOT going to happen....

This is a job an associate is working on and it will be inspected, so perhaps a call to the AHJ would be in order.

As Larry Fine said, "Oy!"

edited to add: And iwire, thanks for the Code section quotes, I only have the 1999 NEC on hand. (BTW I believe that's the Code cycle the location falls under as of this time.)

IMO...You could just run a #12 grounding conductor back to the panel from either of the grounding type receptacles (the ones connected to the new piece of 12/2 w/ground) and use it to ground both receptacles. 250.130(C) & 250.134(B) Exception No.1 (2005 NEC). Problem solved.
I would also install a GFI receptacle at the start of the circuit [although not necessary if you use non-grounded (two prong) receptacles on the boxes with no ground wire]. That way you can replace all of the receptacles with grounding types. You would still need to mark the (3) receptacles without grounding conductors as "GFCI Protected".."No Equipment Ground".
You can use any route that you have to to get it to the panel although you need to keep it out of harms way (not subject to physical damage).
250.120(C).
steve

 

[iwire]

I can't see ever doing that Steve.

If I am going to take the time to route a single 12 or 14 AWG properly all the way back to the panel why would I not simply run 14/2 or 12/2 NM and have a new circuit.

Running a single EGC back to the panel just so I can extend an existing old circuit does not seem IMO to be a great choice.

 

[hillbilly]

I can't see ever doing that Steve.

If I am going to take the time to route a single 12 or 14 AWG properly all the way back to the panel why would I not simply run 14/2 or 12/2 NM and have a new circuit.

Running a single EGC back to the panel just so I can extend an existing old circuit does not seem IMO to be a great choice.

Maybe not a great choice...but a choice.
The OP stated that a new homerun was not a option.
He said that it was going to be inspected.
I was just giving a (IMO) code compliant way to do it.
Not necessarily the best way.
It is easier to hide a single #12.
steve

 

[mxslick]

Still waiting...

Still waiting...

Sorry it took so long to get back to you all....

I have no idea what happened in this situation, or if the AHJ had made a ruling or if the job has been inspected yet.

I'm wondering though, if this relocation is close to a bathroom or if a cold-water pipe is otherwise accessable, would that be a viable option?

Let's hear more on this..

Oh, and Larry Fine, jump in anytime with your thoughts, I'd like to know what you'd do in this situation.

 

[iwire]

or if a cold-water pipe is otherwise accessable, would that be a viable option?

No, we can not use a local water pipe as an EGC.

 

[plate]

I am sort of struggling with what to call the "relocated receptacle," which was referred to as #5 of 7 as well as what to call #6.

Replacement lends itself to all the existing wires being reused. This is not the case.

The installation of the new 12/2 wG lends itself toward calling something new.

I would be inclined to run a new ground to the grounding electrode system and link receptacles #5 and #6 with the 12/2 wG as mentioned in the OP
or
have receptacles #1 thru #5 on their existing circuit and run a new 12/2 wG in order to put receptacles #6 and #7 on their own circuit.

Comments?