Remodel Idea & Question

[dereckbc]

OK I am a Industrial and Telecom train driver, not a lighting designer or residential sparky, so hold the jokes. :lol:

Anyway doing a major kitchen, dinning room, living area remodel. Open concept. I want to use recessed lighting in the ceilings. What I am struggling with is spacing, and can size for appropriate location like kitchen. I am reading a whole lot of conflicting advice. Do not want LED or MRI or any type of low voltage. So what I am asking for is can size, light type, and spacing for Kitchen, dinning and living area. No accent or task lighting, using track for that.

Something along the lines for example:

Kitchen:
Over edge of counter tops, 6 inch cans, every 5 feet, using Halogen watts?.

Dining and Living:
3 feet off walls, every 8 feet, using Halogen watts?

Am I on the right road?

FWIW
I am open to CFLand Halogen ect.. Just do not want the expense of low voltage.

 

[ptonsparky]

Been a while since I've done kitchens but 5' seems too far apart as does the 8' Depends on the task lighting.
We have cfl in 6" cans in the basement family and office. I don't care for them. They were supposed to be dimmable, and they do but not at the same level to each other. LLS. Medium base reflector style. You get used to the slow on. 4 or 5 of the 20 failed relatively quickly. LED are coming down in price with better beam spread and color so I most likely will switch over. I think the halogen get pretty hot and have a short life span. Maybe they are better now.

 

[dereckbc]

Been a while since I've done kitchens but 5' seems too far apart as does the 8' Depends on the task lighting.

Thanks Tom but that is the core of my question as I look around at different design guides.

1 source I read is for general lighting to space 6-inch cans the same height as the ceiling starting 4 feet off the walls, and for task lighting in kitchen to place them 5 feet (distance above counter tops with 8 foot ceilings) just above the outside edge of the counter tops to prevent glare. Another source says to space them 4 feet in kitchens, and 6 feet for general lighting. All I know for sure is to place one directly over the sink.

One of my problems is expense. The Great Room (kitchen-dinning-breakfast-den is around 1200/ft2) which means a lot of cans thus the reason I am shying away from LED's. I can afford it, but I can also afford not to use them.

 

[kwired]

You are on the right track. Something else to consider is spread of beam angle, which is part of reason why spacing depends on the height of the lamp above the lighted surface. Most of the time that makes the 5 feet spacing above kitchen counters absolutely the maximum you want them apart, but ceiling height does play a little factor here.

Something else to consider is the BR and PAR lamps that were once very common are disappearing from the market because of energy conservation acts in recent years. They have made improvements to some lamps that apparently meet the standards but they are only close in performance to what they replaced and often are at a high enough price that CFL or LED technology becomes more appealing. I have primarily been using edison base luminaires with CFL's and reflector style trims in recent years because the lamps we have used in the past are disappearing. If you go away from a reflector type lamp you need a reflector type trim or you will not get very desirable results when making the change.

 

[cadpoint]

If you seek it out most large lamp manufactures have a simple free software that will
show the different aspects of lamp selection.

You input the X, Y, Z of the space, then start adding location then you select lamp(s).

 

[Smart $]

As mentioned, you are on the right track. As you have found, you can get guidance but nothing which specifically "nails it down". I suggest you get yourself a light meter (aka lux meter) and determine the amount of lux or fc you want in different locations. Then you'll have numbers on which to base your decisions.

FWIW, there's even app that can use your smartphone as a lux meter (but I have no experience or idea how accurate it might be).

 

[cadpoint]

Why don't you go read what some of the pro's associacate with!

http://www.americanlightingassoc.com They have all sorts of lighting thoughts.

Said in there if you only downlight a large area; "More elaborate kitchens will demand a blend of general, task and accent lighting".

A generic overview of other things to consider is www.homestyleschoices.com.

 

[Fulthrotl]

OK I am a Industrial and Telecom train driver, not a lighting designer or residential sparky, so hold the jokes. :lol:

Anyway doing a major kitchen, dinning room, living area remodel. Open concept. I want to use recessed lighting in the ceilings. What I am struggling with is spacing, and can size for appropriate location like kitchen. I am reading a whole lot of conflicting advice. Do not want LED or MRI or any type of low voltage. So what I am asking for is can size, light type, and spacing for Kitchen, dinning and living area. No accent or task lighting, using track for that.

Something along the lines for example:

Kitchen:
Over edge of counter tops, 6 inch cans, every 5 feet, using Halogen watts?.

Dining and Living:
3 feet off walls, every 8 feet, using Halogen watts?

Am I on the right road?

FWIW
I am open to CFLand Halogen ect.. Just do not want the expense of low voltage.

halogens get pretty hot, and they don't necessarily produce lighting that is
all that desirable.... they are great for retail sales, and every jewelry shop has loads of them,
but in the house, they get hot, and you have to use a bunch of them...

i did my house with these:

http://dmflight.com/products#13

they dim down to 5% with a $30 dimmer, and produce the same output as a
65 watt R30 lamp. what is cool about them, is that you can use the same
element in a number of different die cast trims, so the light quality is the
same thru the house..... i had existing 5" & 6" cans in my house, and all
the ones i added were 4", so they all got the same treatment.

i had 8 can lights, all incandescent, and they drew more than the 50
LED's i replaced them with.

 

[PetrosA]

Just my opinion, but for me 6" cans don't have any right to exist over a countertop in an 8' ceiling. The scale is all wrong. Over the counters and island(s), I'd use 5" cans. Six inch can work in low ceilings like this, but they need large rooms and they need space between them and the walls, so well into the room for general lighting. The last kitchen I put six inch cans into as additional general lighting was by request of the lady of the house who had them before and wanted to keep them. After all was said and done (went from 4" to 5" over counters, added Ambiance undercabinet lights), she was very grateful for the dimmers because she now felt that she had "too much light" and the ceiling looks... umm... busy.

Anytime you put cans over a countertop in a residential kitchen, you're creating task lighting (undercab lights can augment this, but your overhead lights are the main source). Most of the time I wouldn't even try for an even spacing scheme because when you mount lights over a countertop with upper cabinets you get scallops, and they become a design element that you need to consider. I try and find the best placing based on how the scallops will fall on the cabinet fronts vs. how they'll light the inside of the cabinets and then try to keep the number relatively in check so you don't have lights too close to each other.

Here are some photos from that kitchen I referred to earlier. The six inch cans are a little overkill, but lighting is really hard for people to imagine when they're used to something different. The high ceiling area got PAR38 track lighting (8 total) which is fine for the 11'-14' ceiling height in that area.

 

[kwired]

Just my opinion, but for me 6" cans don't have any right to exist over a countertop in an 8' ceiling. The scale is all wrong. Over the counters and island(s), I'd use 5" cans. Six inch can work in low ceilings like this, but they need large rooms and they need space between them and the walls, so well into the room for general lighting. The last kitchen I put six inch cans into as additional general lighting was by request of the lady of the house who had them before and wanted to keep them. After all was said and done (went from 4" to 5" over counters, added Ambiance undercabinet lights), she was very grateful for the dimmers because she now felt that she had "too much light" and the ceiling looks... umm... busy.

Anytime you put cans over a countertop in a residential kitchen, you're creating task lighting (undercab lights can augment this, but your overhead lights are the main source). Most of the time I wouldn't even try for an even spacing scheme because when you mount lights over a countertop with upper cabinets you get scallops, and they become a design element that you need to consider. I try and find the best placing based on how the scallops will fall on the cabinet fronts vs. how they'll light the inside of the cabinets and then try to keep the number relatively in check so you don't have lights too close to each other.

Here are some photos from that kitchen I referred to earlier. The six inch cans are a little overkill, but lighting is really hard for people to imagine when they're used to something different. The high ceiling area got PAR38 track lighting (8 total) which is fine for the 11'-14' ceiling height in that area.

If you are using same reflector type lamp in either size can what difference is there as far as lighting goes? Say you have a 5 inch can with a PAR 30 lamp vs. a 6 inch can with same PAR 30 lamp? Now if you have a different lamp type with reflector type trims, I can see there being differences in light distribution even with same lamp. There is more to selecting the spacing than just the diameter of the can, lamp type and other optic components will make differences.

 

[cadpoint]

Most electricians haven't taken Art 101, it deals with among other things the introduction of proportions, limits of space / volume limits, with in a space. How to grasp and even present any of these and other aesthetics with how to deal with a space, it's covered.
It will and can be either pleasing to the eye or how not to creat an eye sore!

MO

Small space low ceiling, smaller targets.

Large space high ceiling, bigger targets.

The OP should get some black circle dots to size on existing ceiling, even if future void walls are still up.

 

[PetrosA]

If you are using same reflector type lamp in either size can what difference is there as far as lighting goes? Say you have a 5 inch can with a PAR 30 lamp vs. a 6 inch can with same PAR 30 lamp? Now if you have a different lamp type with reflector type trims, I can see there being differences in light distribution even with same lamp. There is more to selecting the spacing than just the diameter of the can, lamp type and other optic components will make differences.

The light would be very similar, but the ceiling will look very different.

 

[kwired]

The light would be very similar, but the ceiling will look very different.

Of course the ceiling would look different. It would also look different if you replaced them with pendant style fixtures. The light distribution would be different also.

 

[PetrosA]

Of course the ceiling would look different. It would also look different if you replaced them with pendant style fixtures. The light distribution would be different also.

You're absolutely correct, and maybe I misunderstood your previous post. In my experience, the average residential customer can readily see the difference in the light given off by a BR vs. a PAR lamp and some are interested enough to see the difference between a step baffle vs. a haze or wheat haze trim, but the difference between a Sylvania, Philips or Ushio 40 degree PAR30 or even the difference between short PAR30 and long neck PAR30 is going to be much tougher to discern for people who either don't pay attention to lighting or who can't discern nuances like that. As long as you don't mix floods and spots in there, most customers will be happy with things.

Regarding my suggestion to go with fives versus sixes, the difference between a kitchen full of six inch trims vs. five inch trims is also pretty noticeable to most customers, especially when they're over the counter and close to cabinets and crown moldings, scale becomes an important factor.

 

[kwired]

You're absolutely correct, and maybe I misunderstood your previous post. In my experience, the average residential customer can readily see the difference in the light given off by a BR vs. a PAR lamp and some are interested enough to see the difference between a step baffle vs. a haze or wheat haze trim, but the difference between a Sylvania, Philips or Ushio 40 degree PAR30 or even the difference between short PAR30 and long neck PAR30 is going to be much tougher to discern for people who either don't pay attention to lighting or who can't discern nuances like that. As long as you don't mix floods and spots in there, most customers will be happy with things.

Regarding my suggestion to go with fives versus sixes, the difference between a kitchen full of six inch trims vs. five inch trims is also pretty noticeable to most customers, especially when they're over the counter and close to cabinets and crown moldings, scale becomes an important factor.

Unless they are really into designing things most don't know the difference between 5 and 6 inch cans, unless there is a little of each in the same vicinity.

 

[James L]

There are several factors which need to be included in order to get a good lighting scheme in any room. General lighting in 8-9 ft ceiling should be minimum 1 watt per square foot (incandescent/halogen). In other words, a 65 watt BR30 is necessary for each 8'x8' area of space (64 sf). This means they can be spaced about 8' apart. The shape and dimensions of the room will affect how this can be configured, though. Not many rooms can be evenly divided into 8x8 squares, so more light would probably be required to fill the entire room while being esthetically pleasing.

If you have a 12'x12' kitchen, then you would need 4 cans for good general use. However, if you are using task lighting then you may not need as much general lighting. Keep in mind that if cabinets were on 3 walls, you would have an effective floor space of 8'x10'. It's entirely *possible* that one can light in the middle of a kitchen can suffice for general lighting if there is enough task lighting over the counters, etc. I wouldn't suggest it, but it will ultimately depend on how much light you feel like you need. More light with dimmers is better, though. I have yet to find a brightener anywhere

Then - for countertop task lighting, you'll need to forget about square feet and reduce that to linear feet. If a 65 watt can is needed every 8' (approx. 8w per LF) for general use, how does that translate to task lighting? First, I wouldn't use a 5" or 6" can over counters. The beam angle of a BR30 flood bulb is going to throw your light much further than you need. Or, spots will overwhelm you. I would use 4" cans (50w). In my opinion, task lighting should be about twice the wattage of general lighting. So if you need about 8 watts per linear foot for general use, then you need about 16 watts per foot for task lighting. That would be about every 3 feet over counters. And, I would use a flood bulb for this application, because a spot is too narrow. You'd end up with light circles on your counters.

Consider also the cabinet and wall colors. Reds and browns in the room seem to absorb the light, even though it's not the case. The short of it is that if your cabinets are painted white, you'll be ok with less light than if you have Espresso stained cabinets.

Look into s/p ratio (scotopic/photopic), and how the rods and cones in your eyes work in low lighting conditions, relating to color perception. I like LED/cfl lighting because you can choose the color temp. I prefer about 5000k, because my eyes perceive it as simply more light, rather than colored light. Soft white=yellowish tint, cool white=stark white tint, daylight=bluish light. Bright White is just bright - no color.

Many factors involved, and it can get real technical. Hopes some of this helps

 

[dereckbc]

There are several factors which need to be included in order to get a good lighting scheme in any room. General lighting in 8-9 ft ceiling should be minimum 1 watt per square foot (incandescent/halogen).

Yes that is part of the confusion factor, but today watts per ft/2 is going away with T5, T8, CFL and LED. Quickly learned it is Lumens per ft/2, not watts of old. So using your BR30 example emits roughly 640 Lumens according to Phillips specs which sounds really low at 10L/watt, That equates roughly to a 9 watt LED or 23 watt CFL.

I think I have a reasonable plan. In the kitchen for example I am going to use 6-inch 12 watt 4000 Kelvin LED can lamps in the center of the Galley Row spaced every 6 feet, T5 low profile cool white under-cabinet tubes, and Pendants over the Island counters and sink with 6 watt 4000 K LED bulbs.

 

[James L]

Yes that is part of the confusion factor, but today watts per ft/2 is going away with T5, T8, CFL and LED. Quickly learned it is Lumens per ft/2, not watts of old. So using your BR30 example emits roughly 640 Lumens according to Phillips specs which sounds really low at 10L/watt, That equates roughly to a 9 watt LED or 23 watt CFL.

I think I have a reasonable plan. In the kitchen for example I am going to use 6-inch 12 watt 4000 Kelvin LED can lamps in the center of the Galley Row spaced every 6 feet, T5 low profile cool white under-cabinet tubes, and Pendants over the Island counters and sink with 6 watt 4000 K LED bulbs.

You're right, L/sf is the most appropriate designation today. Much more objective and clear cut

It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on what you're trying to accomplish in your kitchen. As I like to say, asking someone "how do like your lighting" is the same as asking someone "How do you like your steak"

There's no right or wrong, it's ultimately a matter of taste. That's the wonderful thing about all the advancements in LEDs and CFLs. Something for everybody.