Remodel Jobs -- Old Wiring

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jeff43222

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Minneapolis, Minnesota
I am curious how other contractors handle old wiring when doing a big remodel job. Lately I've been doing a lot of kitchen remodels. When the room is gutted, there's often a lot of Greenfield or rigid feeding old pancake boxes, and GC doesn't want to have any of it exposed in the end, so we agree that the best course of action is to tear out all of it, start over with new circuits, and bring the kitchen fully up to code.

The problem is that often the old conduit is filled with wiring that feeds other parts of the house, and the pancake boxes are used as j-boxes. Just last week I cut out all the old Greenfield in a kitchen, and that resulted in killing power to a porch light/recp, a basement stairway light, a basement bathroom, an upstairs light (and something else, unknown), basement overhead lights, and the dining-room light.

The contract I signed with the GC doesn't address this, but I'm guessing that it won't go over well if I tell the GC that I had to cut the old stuff out for the remodel, and if that caused other parts of the house to stop working, it's not my problem. The GC is a good guy (cousin of a good friend of mine), and I'd like to work with him again (he pays me on time!).

So how do others address these kinds of situations in their contracts?
 
Re: Remodel Jobs -- Old Wiring

Sometimes we are able to relocate the junction boxes. Other times we just tear everything out. The end result is we end up re-feeding some of the other circuits. Once the old walls are opened, the room falls under new construction and must meet current NEC/State/Local code. Often times when you run into a "rat's nest" that is above and beyond anything that anyone imagined, bill it out as an extra. IF you can justify it is a bonafide extra, the GC or homeowner will pay. They will grumble, but they'll pay.
 
Re: Remodel Jobs -- Old Wiring

Generally any residential done prior the 1960's has been 'ceiling center-strung' similar to the old K & T systems. Expect the lighting systems throughout the house to be wired together in two lighting branch circuits. If the kitchen is being remodelled, isolate that particular lighting power feed in a J-box and remove the exposed switch legs in the kitchen and related dining areas. Install a new general purpose branch circuit for new lighting, range hood, dining, undercounter lights, and sp, 3-way or 4-way related in-wall switching etc. All other kitchen SA, range, disposer, dishwasher circuits are going to be relocated and rewired to the new configuration that requires updated cabling and outlet interfacing hookups.

The real trick to remod is getting to the main disconnect panel or subpanel without tearing up old finished walls intended to remain. Prioritize that strategy with the GC to include those pathway changes in the bid. This way the GC will be able to adjust for additional work with no surprises. I make it sound easy but remod is full of surprises.

Mapping out the entire house BCs will help minimize old work surprises. Usually I make a floor plan layout by noting main panel runs whether they are attic, crawl, or wall concealed for accessibility. With a helper, it takes about a half hour to scope out 1500 sf residence + garage. It is time well spent and looks good to the GC for future work. Remod is fun and challenging. Good luck.
rbj, Seattle
 
Re: Remodel Jobs -- Old Wiring

sounds like you are in trouble----residential kitchen remodels require some planing and additional money must be set aside to cover this work, knowing that you will not usually know the full scope of these circuits until you complete the demolition! either, add money to your original estimate or explain this to your customer so everyone is on a level playing field! i can't immagine going to someone's home and leaving with some circuits not working until they are added to the scope of the job??
 
Re: Remodel Jobs -- Old Wiring

Your bid needed to be broken down in sections.#1 is demo this must include a clause to protect you from circuits that need refed.It should include a fixed list of what you are removing.It must be understood up front that if any circuits need refed that it will be an extra.I would suggest they allow for at least 4 hours of refeeding.#2 the easy part is for the new stuff.Also include that any discovered code violation will be an extra.Do not forget to warn them that removing a unwanted item may be more involved than adding new.If they are looking for a locked down price then just slam them hard enough that you can not lose.They might want to let you do the demo in a seperate contract then let you bid on what it will take now that you can see everything.Opening up walls can open up many code violations.Might very well find insulation in an old K&T and this might end up with a remodel or addition becoming a rewire the house job.Cover your self.
Also a very important issue is will the home be ocupied while work is going on.Needing to have every thing up and running each afternoon at quiting time adds to cost.
It can be a fun job but very dirty

[ March 15, 2005, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: Remodel Jobs -- Old Wiring

I did a lot of remodel work where this problem existed, and also worked for another electrical contractor who bid these items blind. The trick is to look at the wiring feeding old circuits, and see if it can be moved to one of the new locations, or some creative adaption can be done: j-box in cabinet, add light, add smoke in adjacent room. can always cut rigid and use threadless to swing wires.

It is often the case however that they cannot just be killed as they are a part of old overfilled boxes and conduit and are going to create the need for more fixes. Sometimes a new feed to one of the other locations is just not an option.

paul
 
Re: Remodel Jobs -- Old Wiring

Dont over look that you might be able to make a junction in the attic just above the area you need to remove the box from.Do enough remodels and you learn tricks.Usually a job never goes easier than you exspected.
 
Re: Remodel Jobs -- Old Wiring

Thanks for all the advice. It will sure come in handy the next time I do a big remodel job. Fortunately, this isn't really costing me any money, as I'm a one-man shop. It is costing me time, though.

The big lesson I've learned is to make sure I know as much about the old wiring as possible before I make my bid. I found some very weird wiring that took me a while to decipher, and that makes it harder to re-do the circuits. In one case, there was a single neutral snaking through the kitchen that ultimately went into a basement receptacle/junction box, which was fed with a hot from somewhere else (with wire insulation colors not corresponding to code requirements). Instead of circuits, it was more of a web.

In the end, I'm going to make sure everything that worked before I started will work before I leave for good. In this case, though, neither the GC or I discussed the issue beforehand, and I've gotten the impression that he feels it's understood that it's my responsibility to make sure anything killed by the remodel is brought back to life before I finish the job.
 
Re: Remodel Jobs -- Old Wiring

We also do some kitchen remodel jobs and run into the same type of situation. What we do is instead of using "new work" recess light cans, we use remodel cans. Once the trim is removed it gives you a 6" access to any JB you may have in the ceiling. Trick is to design it around these necessary access'. I know it sounds off the wall but it works and conforms to code by being accessible.
 
Re: Remodel Jobs -- Old Wiring

Fortunately, this isn't really costing me any money, as I'm a one-man shop. It is costing me time, though
Click to expand...
You must not pay yourself then. Time is money!
I do about 40 Kitchen remodels per year. When I estimate I give a number that I am comfortable with and make it clear that there has to be flexibility in the price because you never know exactly what you will need to do untill you get into the work. With experience you can get real close to the actual cost. If they insist on a firm quote I go high.
 
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