Remodel Strategy

[JoeNorm]

I have a remodel coming up in an older house, maybe 40's or 50's. It was going to be major but scope has shifted to mainly kitchen and a few rooms.

My question is about integrating arc-fault and if it is best to start with all new home runs for the new kitchen so as to know the wiring will not cause problems with the breakers. I know each situation is different but in this case the goal is the best product, not budget. A lot of drywall is already removed.

I am wondering how others approach these situations. I am even tempted to feed a sub panel next to the main panel to put all the new circuits since the main is pretty full already. This would keep things clean and separate from past wiring. Is that overkill?

 

[kec]

I have a remodel coming up in an older house, maybe 40's or 50's. It was going to be major but scope has shifted to mainly kitchen and a few rooms.

My question is about integrating arc-fault and if it is best to start with all new home runs for the new kitchen so as to know the wiring will not cause problems with the breakers. I know each situation is different but in this case the goal is the best product, not budget. A lot of drywall is already removed.

I am wondering how others approach these situations. I am even tempted to feed a sub panel next to the main panel to put all the new circuits since the main is pretty full already. This would keep things clean and separate from past wiring. Is that overkill?

I think you may have answered your question

 

[ptonsparky]

A Sub sounds like a very good option if a service upgrade is not doable at this time.

 

[JoeNorm]

I don't think a service upgrade is necessary. There are actually two 200A panels side by side, not original to the house I don't think.

So in theory there is a lot of space, but those two panels are mostly full already

 

[ptonsparky]

I don't think a service upgrade is necessary. There are actually two 200A panels side by side, not original to the house I don't think.

So in theory there is a lot of space, but those two panels are mostly full already

How big is this house?!!

 

[Frank DuVal]

How big is this house?!!

It doesn't have to be big, just wired by an electrician with few receptacles on a breaker, and lots of receptacles in every room. Oh, wait, that is a personal story.... Doesn't every house get 6 outdoor circuits? 7+SABCs? You can fill one fast.

 

[ptonsparky]

It doesn't have to be big, just wired by an electrician with few receptacles on a breaker, and lots of receptacles in every room. Oh, wait, that is a personal story.... Doesn't every house get 6 outdoor circuits? 7+SABCs? You can fill one fast.

Oh I agree! Picturing two 42 circuit 200 amp panels next to each other in a 2000 sq ft home.

 

[letgomywago]

So what I do if new circuits are getting pulled and now there are only a few outlets and lights on a hand full of circuits is I'll combine those old ones. I do try to keep the outside dedicated circuits not combined because they might be used for heat tape using the old exception for class A gfi devices instead of GFPE so adding them on the same circuit could make for headaches.

 

[growler]

I am wondering how others approach these situations. I am even tempted to feed a sub panel next to the main panel to put all the new circuits since the main is pretty full already. This would keep things clean and separate from past wiring. Is that overkill?

I really like to spend a little time figuring out what's there to start with. If you have two panels full of breakers it would be good to get an idea what they are feeding. These circuits may have been for individual window AC units or baseboard heaters or somethings that's no longer even needed.

 

[James L]

On a house that age, I'm for sure trying isolate the new area from the old. Having it at least mostly gutted can help a lot.

1940s you may have that super fat cloth NM with cloth insulation inside, twist and tape connections.... I'm really trying to keep that off any new circuits if possible.

1950s probably has cloth NM with PVC insulation, crimp sleeves and caps, etc. I don't have any problem putting it on a dual function breaker.

But in either scenario I wouldn't make a call on that until visually inspecting inside a few light fixture boxes and device boxes to see the condition of the connections

 

[GoldDigger]

When putting in GFCI or dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers in an old installation, you need to be sure that all of the neutral runs are clean without shared or crossed neutrals except in MWBCs. Do you trust the previous electrician about something that would not have caused symptoms with the original breakers?
Instead of inspecting you could disconnect and ring out all hots and neutrals in the original wiring. Look at the labor cost for that.

 

[AC\DC]

I would run new circuits since Sherlock’s open. That way you work is covered then talk owner into Gfci breakers for the old panel.
To protect those old possible 2 wire circuits.
That is if they have the money for what sounds like a lot of old breakers to replace

 

[letgomywago]

I would run new circuits since Sherlock’s open. That way you work is covered then talk owner into Gfci breakers for the old panel.
To protect those old possible 2 wire circuits.
That is if they have the money for what sounds like a lot of old breakers to replace

Sometimes those old houses once you have the kitchen and bath off the old wiring you might be able to get by with just 1 or 2 gfi circuits (cough cough dualfunction cuz new outlets) and meet 3va per ft^2.

 

[cadpoint]

I like Growler's post in respect to know your job, walk your job!
You didn't say if it was a multi level house, if it is head for the stairway with your runs, it's one route to get upstairs easier.
Go to the attic and at the exterior wall and under the pitch of the roof see if you can run a tape down, and if it drops all the
way down to the room height, Believe or not most are open to the attic. 40's houses have a lot of mid frame blocking on
exterior walls say @ ~5', 50's house not so much.
Most don't have insulation so it might be worth the knowledge either way.
If it has a crawl space consider looping runs down there, up, and avoid the blocking.
40's homes might have smaller metal hexagonal boxes that might be tight volume wise only suited for about nothing.
They might have receptacles in toe-kick wood running around the room.
Every piece of wood will be cured (aged) so be prepared.

 

[JoeNorm]

Thanks for the responses. Turns out the house was built even earlier, maybe late 1800's. But.....it appears a rewire has been done and everything actually looks pretty good.

The two 200 amp panels are each 30 space, so not a ton of room to start with. And there are numerous outbuildings, saunas, and jacuzzis being fed