replace old switchboard or not

[electrofelon]

I am looking for a little advice on situation I have. The client has a 60's (?) era square D 1200 amp switchboard. The 1200 main is bad and obsolete. Also 2 output compartments do not turn off. I have a quote from square D for 20 grand to replace the main breaker and bussing. I came up with 2 other options: one is to get a rebuilt/refurbished breaker and the other is to replace the switchboard with a stand alone CT cabinet and 800 amp panelboard (they dont need 1200 amps) because I figured I could do that for less than the 20 K retrofit breaker. We met with the utility yesterday and it looks like it will be more of a can of worms than I anticipated because the conductors are very short and will need to be pulled out and replaced. Utility and state rules do not allow splicing of these conductors. Furthermore, the conduit ends are very messy, partially embedded in concrete, and there is not enough room to put a 90 on them. So this all means we will likely have to replace it with a switchboard which I assume will be a big jump in price, and we are looking at a lot of downtime which is a big issue with this facility.

My question is what are your opinions on keeping this switchboard vs replacing it? I keep going back and forth. On one hand, this company is doing very well and can afford to upgrade and generally they like to do things right and invest in their infrastructure for the future. Originally, I was pushing them for the gear replacement since IMO it wasnt a big price jump from refurbishing the old. On the other hand, most of that switchboard is bullet proof and will last another 100 years. With a refurbished main, I would think that the only issue for a long time may be the compartment disconnect mechanisms but that may be as simple as some cleaning and lubrication. What would you recommend to the client? As far as costs, lets just say its about 6K to get an install the new main and get those two compartments to disconnect properly. I was thinking around 17K to replace the whole mess, but that now will be more because of the concrete work or going to switchboard construction, replacing the conductors, renting a generator, probably some utility work charges, etc......

 

[petersonra]

A 50 YO piece of equipment is something that is about due to be retired.

 

[kwired]

A 50 YO piece of equipment is something that is about due to be retired.

I'm almost 50 and feel the same way

Seriously - it is time to replace it.

Can you build alternate location service equipment(even if immediately adjacent to old service) so that you can keep things running while building the new service? This may mean less down time, at some point you will need to move things to the new service, but maybe you even could have both old and new service on line at same time to allow transfer of branch circuits/feeders from one to the other at your own pace instead of all needing to be done at one time. I understand some places they may not let you do that, either AHJ or POCO or both, but can be a help if they will allow it.

 

[cadpoint]

My Mother favorite expression, "Go First Class"!

There's a lot to be said for that!

Present the total job numbers, have the alternate numbers (less work) if your really
feel it!

 

[Tony S]

This really comes down to economics. The new equipment costs money, diverting supplies costs money, down time costs money.

Does the refurbished breaker come with a warranty and testing certificates? Is it a straight swap? A straight swap won?t involve altering busbars and feeders

Time costs money.

As for the out going ways:
You?re probably right, lack of maintenance.
I had a 4000A MG MasterPack ACB jamb solid. It was stuck just at the point the isolating contacts should part. I mean solid, it wouldn?t go back to service or to isolated. No one had even looked at the isolation contacts in fifteen years never mind cleaned and lubricated them.

People saying it?s had its day, change it, don?t live in the real world of economics. Or they?re sat in the lounge with a drink thinking ?it?s not my job?.

Give me an open cheque book, I?ll spend anyone?s money so long as it?s not mine.

 

[kwired]

People saying it?s had its day, change it, don?t live in the real world of economics. Or they?re sat in the lounge with a drink thinking ?it?s not my job?.

Give me an open cheque book, I?ll spend anyone?s money so long as it?s not mine.

Each situation has it's own set of conditions and some may be more worth while to refurbish, most of what I typically run into is usually best to replace 50 year old equipment, though some equipment in a few places I work at is around that age and today's equipment is not really any different. Have a place that has Square D I-line and QO panels everywhere - some near 50 years old - they are basically same as they make today, so if bus is ok new breakers have had little change and are listed to fit in the old panels, different ballgame when you run into equipment lines that are no longer produced.

 

[Tony S]

This really comes down to economics. The new equipment costs money, diverting supplies costs money, down time costs money.

Each situation has it's own set of conditions and some may be more worth while to refurbish, most of what I typically run into is usually best to replace 50 year old equipment, though some equipment in a few places I work at is around that age and today's equipment is not really any different. Have a place that has Square D I-line and QO panels everywhere - some near 50 years old - they are basically same as they make today, so if bus is ok new breakers have had little change and are listed to fit in the old panels, different ballgame when you run into equipment lines that are no longer produced.

It?s nearly forty years since I was first involved in installing a new 3MVA board. The switchgear is still available today and still meets both EU and US standards.

The only thing they have dropped from the range is the 1200A, 1600A, 2400A and 3200A switchfuses, compact ACB?s replace them. It would take me a couple of hours to remove a switchfuse and simply bolt in a new ACB.

I?ve worked on switchgear that?s eighty years old, it looks decrepit but works perfectly. Unlike me, I am decrepit.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Much of that old SQD stuff is beefier than the new stuff. Gage of the steel, bracing stuff like that. The old stuff was over engineered. Today things are Value engineered not over engineered.

If there is a way to remanufacture with good parts that are certified. or have Sqd provide new MB and bussing that sounds better since the downtime will be minimal.

If the main is damaged what is powering the switchboard

 

[Tony S]

Certified refurbished or remanufactured equipment is by far the best option.

Older gear as Sierra pointed out was over engineered. With a bit of TLC it will be good for years to come.

Can the main be rescued and made safe for continued use?

 

[electrofelon]

If the main is damaged what is powering the switchboard

On pole does not open

Does the refurbished breaker come with a warranty and testing certificates? Is it a straight swap? A straight swap won?t involve altering busbars and feeders

One place I talked to will test and warranty it. Should be a straight swap.

Can you build alternate location service equipment(even if immediately adjacent to old service) so that you can keep things running while building the new service?

That got me thinking thats a good idea if I went the replace route. I could have the utility disconnect 2 of the 4 sets and rework them into the new stuff then move feeders over at my leisure.

My thinking is that they should not put any money into refurbishing if they are going to have to replace it sometime anyway. So the question is can the unit remain in service another 20 or 30 years (at that point the only thing the owners will have to worry about is finishing the bridge game in time to watch matlock reruns in the old folks home)? With some maintenance here and there, I dont really see why not. If it was full of old circuit breakers I would want it replaced, but everything other than the main on this is fuses and all the holders are super tight, there is no corrosion anywhere.