Residential demand meter

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sparky 134

Senior Member
Location
Joliet, IL
A customer called asking about some type of meter that could be installed to measure usage. The setting is a 6 unit townhouse with a common water meter closet on the end unit. The receptacle inside the water closet which provides power to the heater in the closet is fed from the panel located inside the end unit thus the homeowner has been paying for the power for the heater.

So the homeowner wants some type of meter to measure the amount of power the heater is using so he can divide the cost by six and have the other units reimburse him. I suggested just using a flat rate per unit for reimbursement but he didn't like that idea.

Any suggestions ? The heater is a small, plug in, 120volt unit.
 
P

Power Tech

Senior Member
Location
Lebec, California
sparky 134 said:
A customer called asking about some type of meter that could be installed to measure usage. The setting is a 6 unit townhouse with a common water meter closet on the end unit. The receptacle inside the water closet which provides power to the heater in the closet is fed from the panel located inside the end unit thus the homeowner has been paying for the power for the heater.

So the homeowner wants some type of meter to measure the amount of power the heater is using so he can divide the cost by six and have the other units reimburse him. I suggested just using a flat rate per unit for reimbursement but he didn't like that idea.

Any suggestions ? The heater is a small, plug in, 120volt unit.
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If the heater is on a stat wouldn't you have to leave the meter on it for an entire year? As in the winter consumption would go up, and in summer down.

If you could provide info about the stat and heater wattage? Some small heaters pull 1600W.
 
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satcom

Senior Member
That sounds like an easy fix, the owner needs to have a service installed for the common areas, the laws vary from state to state, so it is best to check with your state laws, in my state, the owner would have to provide a seperate meter, and pay the unit owner back for all the years the condition existed. sub metering usually requires third party audits and biilling, where it is allowed, the owner just does not want to spend the money to do it the legal way.
 
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sparky 134

Senior Member
Location
Joliet, IL
It's kinda' funny how this whole situation came about. Until the heaters were installed (plugged in) there was a supply vent in the closet that supplied warm air from the end unit's furnace. When this particular homeowner went to Florida for the winter he turned the furnace off, drained the water pipes and left. The water meter closet froze and pipes started bursting. The homeowner did not know he was supplying the warm air in the closet from his furnace.

So the heaters were installed and somehow the homeowner figured out he was paying for the electricity.
 
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satcom

Senior Member
e57 said:
A good way to create bad feelings...

That said - Follow satcoms advice... Common meter from the poco and tell 'em to set up an HOA to pay it.... Or wait - that is yet another way to create bad feelings... :D

Then again it sounds like the bad feelings have already started.
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The building owner should be paying for the common areas, sub metering is not always allowed in some states, I noted he should check his state laws, on sub metering. what is this bad feeling stuff? the building will feel bad if he has to make some changes to comply with the law?
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
satcom said:
The building owner should be paying for the common areas, sub metering is not always allowed in some states, I noted he should check his state laws, on sub metering. what is this bad feeling stuff? the building will feel bad if he has to make some changes to comply with the law?
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I was reading between the lines - I get the feeling they are all owners... (?) In this townhouse split into multiple units?
sparky 134 said:
A customer called asking about some type of meter that could be installed to measure usage. The setting is a 6 unit townhouse with a common water meter closet on the end unit. The receptacle inside the water closet which provides power to the heater in the closet is fed from the panel located inside the end unit thus the homeowner has been paying for the power for the heater.

So the homeowner wants some type of meter to measure the amount of power the heater is using so he can divide the cost by six and have the other units reimburse him. I suggested just using a flat rate per unit for reimbursement but he didn't like that idea.

Any suggestions ? The heater is a small, plug in, 120volt unit.
Click to expand...

sparky 134 said:
It's kinda' funny how this whole situation came about. Until the heaters were installed (plugged in) there was a supply vent in the closet that supplied warm air from the end unit's furnace. When this particular homeowner went to Florida for the winter he turned the furnace off, drained the water pipes and left. The water meter closet froze and pipes started bursting. The homeowner did not know he was supplying the warm air in the closet from his furnace.

So the heaters were installed and somehow the homeowner figured out he was paying for the electricity.
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IMO what they really need is 6 seperate water heaters. But thats plumbing... (And yes - a common meter for common areas)

The bad feelings is what I always sense the minute I hear about any request for sub-metering - even in commercial where it isn't even someones personal money at stake.
 
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winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
e57 said:
IMO what they really need is 6 seperate water heaters. But thats plumbing... (And yes - a common meter for common areas)
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I'm pretty sure that these are not 'water heaters' for producing hot water. Rather this is a small electric heater to prevent pipes from freezing.

If this is a really small load that _should_ shared by a home owner's association, the common meter approach might actually raise costs for the impacted home-owner. Each meter has its own base charge, and on top of this there are _6_ units; a 7th meter might be very expensive. On the other hand, perhaps there is already a common meter and this load just needs to be tied in to the correct service?

If these heaters are simply plugged in, it would probably make sense to simply use a plug in "kill-a-watt" meter to figure out how much it is actually costing to run.

Additionally, it would probably make sense to heat tape the piping and then insulate the piping, rather than using a much larger heater to heat the entire room.

-Jon
 
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satcom

Senior Member
e57 said:
I was reading between the lines - I get the feeling they are all owners... (?) In this townhouse split into multiple units?




IMO what they really need is 6 seperate water heaters. But thats plumbing... (And yes - a common meter for common areas)

The bad feelings is what I always sense the minute I hear about any request for sub-metering - even in commercial where it isn't even someones personal money at stake.
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Yes the owner is the owners in common, and they take on any expenses, and you are right aout the bad feelings. I think that is why our laws came about, to avoid problems, the law is clear, they are not allowed to just share the cost, they can install a sub meter, provided they sign a third party contract to audit and bill the sub meter, this is common in many states, however they would have to check the laws in their state, and the one unit owner would have to agree, or they could end up with an additional poco meter.

It sounds like changing the water main feeds would work, but just create more problems. This looks like it will turn into an intresting subject, and I would like to see what they do to resolve it.
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
satcom said:
Yes the owner is the owners in common, and they take on any expenses, and you are right aout the bad feelings. I think that is why our laws came about, to avoid problems, the law is clear, they are not allowed to just share the cost, they can install a sub meter, provided they sign a third party contract to audit and bill the sub meter, this is common in many states, however they would have to check the laws in their state, and the one unit owner would have to agree, or they could end up with an additional poco meter.

It sounds like changing the water main feeds would work, but just create more problems. This looks like it will turn into an intresting subject, and I would like to see what they do to resolve it.
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There are many TIC's (Tenancy In Common) and condo's here where single ownership buildings have been split up. And it is often a bone of contention between owners of TIC's and older condos that did not have to go through a re-inspection process to ensure common metering. Even though if the building is permantly and legally split up by 'condo conversion' - which today would require common metering and to be paid by a HOA - they never want to get into the nitty gritty or expense of actually doing it. Then some owner feels he is paying more and war breaks out. Agreed, it is most legal and equitable for seperate common metering by the POCO - but war also breaks out about the expense of doing just that...

Depending on what this 'heater' is. Seperate plumbing may be the real issue at head of the line. But common metering of the electric for it may be the 'work around' they see as the cheapest option - until some guy pitches a fit, and says his neighbor takes long showers - then see the sparks fly... ;) (At least locally it is REALLY hard to get the city to allow, if not provide seperate water metering unless the structures are physically seperate.)
 
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sparky 134

Senior Member
Location
Joliet, IL
The water closet only contains the six water meters for the six units. The main water service to the building is located in this room and it feeds the six separate meters.

Since this closet is located on the side of the end unit the easiest solution to heating the space was to tap into the end unit's HVAC system. How the builder got this past the Building Dept. is baffling.

As for bringing in a separate electrical service to provide power for one 20amp receptacle for the heater I know the association would never go for it. The costs would be very high.

I'm not sure how many of these six unit buildings are in this subdivision but there are at least twelve of them. The Kill A Watt plug in meter would be the simpliest way for them to monitor the usage but then the HOA would have to read each meter once a month, calculate the usage, figure out the cost, pay the end unit homeowner, charge the other five homeowners. Quite the project.
 
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winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Run a separate circuit from each apartment back to the water meter closet. Heat tape that units meter and pipes with power taken from that unit's circuit.

Or set a receptacle near to where the water pipes enter each unit, and heat tape for the full length back to the meter closet.

Basically each unit pays the cost of keeping its own pipes not frozen. No separate meters. No separate service.

-Jon
 
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satcom

Senior Member
winnie said:
Run a separate circuit from each apartment back to the water meter closet. Heat tape that units meter and pipes with power taken from that unit's circuit.

Or set a receptacle near to where the water pipes enter each unit, and heat tape for the full length back to the meter closet.

Basically each unit pays the cost of keeping its own pipes not frozen. No separate meters. No separate service.

-Jon
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Now the owner of the last unit has access to run his washer dryer or anything else he wants on those circuits.
 
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