residential outlet tailing wire size

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still-learnin

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Ok, my question is can you tail out a 20A circuit (wired with #12) with #14 at the J-box? The reason for doing so is ease in connection to the receptacle with stab-in hole that will not accept #12. I probalbly should have ran #14 for the outlets, but i do not to residential very often and am not sure of the common practices that are done.
 
Well still learning two things I would like to make comment on here.

First and foremost you did not fill out your profile and as far as I know I might be talking to a ??????

Second your answer will be found in 240.4(D)
 
It may be against forum rules, but I believe nobody will object to giving this advice:

Don't use stabs, even with #14, please. :cry:
 
ok profile info has been added
I see what the nec says,but can some explain to me the logic in this on a residental recep. the likekyhood of having a 20A load at one receptacle seems unlikely. So why the need for the tap to be #12 when a #14 is good for 20A even though only allowed on a 15A breaker.


As for stab-ins onthe recep. I usually use the positve clamp recep tyes, but was looking to save the customer money on the stab -in style
 
Before any Moderators jump on Mr. Stll-Learninf, please note that he "does not do residential often". This implies that he is from the commercial or industrial branch of the trade.
But then he is talking about a 20 amp circuit and is pondering that he should have wired it with #14?
~Peter
 
My ? on the #14 wire is for tails only. An 8 inch piece of #14 tailed onto #12 at the outlet box,with #12 into and out of the box throughout the circuit . I am just having a hard time in understanding the potential dangers of doing this.
I have never done this and I am looking for some input on the reasoning. I would not put #14 on a 20 amp breaker for a branch circuit.
 
It seems silly that we can put a 15 amp recep on a 20 amp circuit (usually), use 16 guage fixture wires on a 20 amp circuit, but not 14 guage tails to feed a recep on a 20 A circuit. I actually think it would be safer and more reliable to do this as it would put less stress on the receptacle. Just my opinion. But doesn't 310.19(A)(4) allow us to put 14 guage tails/taps on a 20 amp lighting outlet?
 
I have never done this and I am looking for some input on the reasoning. I would not put #14 on a 20 amp breaker for a branch circuit.


But effectively you have when you put the #14 tail on a 20 amp CB. This is prohibited by 240.4(D), unless you have an application that would fall under one of the conditions listed in 240.4(E). For example 240.4(E)(2) for fixture wire, directs you to 240.5(B)(2) which allows conductors to be protected at ampacities higher than those outlined in 240.4(D).
 
I agree with Trevor that 210.4(D) prevents 14 AWG pig tails on a 20 amp branch circuit and I will add that 210.19(A)(2) also prevents it.

210.(A)(2) Multioutlet Branch Circuits. Conductors of branch circuits supplying more than one receptacle for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads shall have an ampacity of not less than the rating of the branch circuit.

A duplex receptacle is more than one receptacle.

I actually think it would be safer and more reliable to do this as it would put less stress on the receptacle.

The terminals are made for 12 AWG and often are listed for 10 AWG.

Come work with me and you will be using 10 AWG solid for many receptacles. :lol:
 
Why do you as a commercial guy find it hard to use #12 ? You do have one way out to use #14 and that is to install 15 amp breakers.If i was an inspector and seen #14 tails on #12 i would spend 2 hours inspecting your work
 
Read over 240.6(D, then looked over 240.(E) and (G) - referenced in 240.6(D). Part of the statement is that #14 AWG needs a 15 A breaker - unless (E) or (G) are involved. What from (G) could set up a scenario where you could protect a #14 with something higher than a 15A CB?

Thanks

Brett
 
I see what the NEC says, but I am looking for some logic to the thought. When at almost every outlet the device that you will be plugging in will have a cord with a #14 or smaller wire, and I know the code says that is allowed. But can someone explain the logic in this, where a #14 cord is allow but an 8 inch #14 pigtail is a violation.

I have not done this on this project, or any other job. I just felt like this would a place that I could pose the Question and get the knowledge and wisdom. Not just quotes from the NEC.
 
Read the whole code book and tell us where logic is covered. :wink:

Seriously, if there were no prohibition people have a tendancy to turn an inch into a mile, so your 8" example would undoubtedly get out of hand.

It's easier to control and more enforcible this way

Roger
 
still-learnin said:
But can someone explain the logic in this, where a #14 cord is allow but an 8 inch #14 pigtail is a violation.

The NEC allows fixture wires and other conductors to be smaller than the branch circuit conductors when they serve a fixed load, such as an incandescent luminaire that only allows a 60 watt bulb maximum.


On the other hand, It's impossible to know what's going to be plugged into a receptacle, therefore, theoretically a receptacle could be loaded to 20 amps.
 
On the other hand, It's impossible to know what's going to be plugged into a receptacle, therefore, theoretically a receptacle could be loaded to 20 amps.


Well, I'm not sure but I think each receptacle on a duplex is rated at 15A for example (could be other ratings). If I am correct in this you could place a 30 amp load on the one outlet. Anyway I digress; If this were a single receptacle rated at 15 amps, I don't see how you load it to 20A. In terms of safety I don't see where having up to 12" of #14 spliced to #12 feeding a 15A duplex on a 20A circuit is unsafe. Do I think it should be done? NO!
 
still-learnin said:
. . . almost every outlet the device that you will be plugging in will have a cord with a #14 or smaller wire. . . but an 8 inch #14 pigtail is a violation.
It's a fair question. Let me address the vacuum cleaner's power cord first.

The whole intent of establishing ampacity limits and using overcurrent devices to make sure current does not exceed the ampacity limits has to do with protecting the conductors' insulation system from damage. Too much current will raise the temperature of the metal conductors to the point that the insulation starts to degrade, or even to melt. That, in turn, will lead to short circuits and possibly to fires. Anytime you ever get into discussions about ampacity, you should take a moment to remind yourself of this reason for ampacity limits. It will help you stay on track, for the rest of your discussion.

But how much current is too much? It depends on many things. One key factor is the manner in which the conductor is routed. Another is the environmental conditions surrounding the conductor, or more if applicable, surrounding the conduit. If the conduit runs through a hot area, then you can start to see damage to the insulation at a lower current level. If there are other current-carrying conductors in the same conduit, then each will feel the heat being released by the others, and here again you can start to see damage to the insulation at a lower current level. That is why there are derating factors for temperature and for multiple conductors in the same conduit.

A vacuum cleaner's power cord is not surrounded by conduit, it is used in rooms that are not too hot for the occupant, and it does not share a limited space with other conductors. It is run in free air. Therefore, it can give up its heat to the surrounding air more easily than a #14 sitting inside a conduit that is inside a wall. So it should seem reasonable that a #14 appliance power cord can take every bit of the 20 amps a breaker can supply, and not be a risk of damage.

Please note that I could have just said that the vacuum cleaner's power cord is not covered by the NEC, and left it there. But you asked for more informative responses.

Finally, I will address your question about using 8 inches worth of #14 at the outlet box. You really cannot count on the owner to use appliances drawing less than 15 amps. The owner will plug in anything that looks like it has the right kind of plug, and will never worry about the possible results. They will even plug in something that draws 21 or 23 or 25 amps. All they know is that that is a receptacle, and this is a plug, so they ought to be able to just plug it in. Please take note that a 20 amp breaker might not trip on a 21 amp load. It might trip on a 25 amp load, but it might take a while. What we want to prevent is insulation damage to the #14 wire on a sustained load higher than 15 amps. So if there are #14 pigtails (other than in circumstances specifically described in the code), you have to protect them with a 15 amp breaker. If you want a 20 amp circuit, then you have to make sure all conductors can safely handle 20 amps or more for a sustained time period.

Short answer: just think of it as an added safety precaution.
 
I also do not see the logic here. But the code is the code so we follow it.


How much current could be applied to a 14 AWG Type THHN conductor that is not longer than 8 inches without degrading the insulation or the copper conductor?????
I am not a scientist, but I am willing to bet all of your money that it is greater than 20 amperes.
 
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